The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Point of Salvation?

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The elect of God should be able to look back in their life and see the work of God throughout their life. I think we have moments of repentance when the Spirit convicts of certain things but we should be living a life of repentance and live in fellowship with our God through the quickening of the Holy Spirit. And we should be able to say with the Psalmist Bless the Lord O my soul and all that is within me bless His holy name.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Wes,<br><br>Indeed, THIS is where one should focus their attention. Although I can remember the very moment when I was crushed by the convicting work of the Spirit, shown the true person of Christ and my desperate need of Him and His atoning work for me, I do not and cannot rest upon that event. What must be asked of everyone is: At this moment in time, where are you in relation to the Lord Christ?. Can you look into your heart and confess that it is pure blackness? Are you ever mindful of your sinfulness? Is Christ most lovely in your spiritual eyes and is He your all and all? Can you confess that without Him you are nothing? Perhaps Asaph expressed this best when he wrote:<blockquote>Psalms 73:21-26 (ASV) "For my soul was grieved, And I was pricked in my heart: So brutish was I, and ignorant; I was [as] a beast before thee. Nevertheless I am continually with thee: Thou hast holden my right hand. Thou wilt guide me with thy counsel, And afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven [but thee]? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides thee. My flesh and my heart faileth; [But] God is the strength of my heart and my portion for ever."</blockquote>Edited: Corrected the author of Psalm 73 from David to Asaph! Thank you Stucco! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,

Hi Pilgrim,<br><br>I think Psalm 73 expresses the point beautifully. But isn't that one written by Asaph?<br><br>Hope all is well.<br><br>Stucco

Stucco,<br><br>Indeed, you are correct, it is a Psalm of Asaph and not David. Please forgive my error as I was relying upon my failing memory [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/gramps.gif" alt="gramps" title="gramps[/img] when I quoted that portion of the Psalm. I shall immediately correct the error in my post and thank you for pointing this out. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>

Pilgrim,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I can remember the very moment when I was crushed by the convicting work of the Spirit, shown the true person of Christ and my desperate need of Him and His atoning work for me, I do not and cannot rest upon that event. What must be asked of everyone is: At this moment in time, where are you in relation to the Lord Christ?</font><hr></blockquote><p>I can also remember being overwhelmed by the convicting work of the Holy Spirit. For me there was a specific event that brought me to my knees. However as I look back on my life I can see many evidences of God's grace before and after that moment in time. Every day new mercies I see! <br><br>I fully agree with your assessment about knowing our relationship to Christ TODAY. Our relationship should not consist in an event that happened one day in our experience but every day progressively in our fellowship with Him.<br><br><br>Wes

Thanks for sharing Psalm 73!<br><br>I am amazed at how many people fall for the easy believism/decisionalism doctrine. Why do you think that is? I think it is due in large part to a lack of Biblical literacy, plus our stubborn pride getting in the way. Also, it is our unwillingness to hate the things that God despises.<br>

Amen!<br><br>There is a particular point I remember first realizing the full extent and heaviness of my sin and how I had been trying to be a "good Christian" all on my own. I remember the night I said "Lord, you be the Lord of my life! Be my Savior AND my God." And I do believe that Christ will be both Lord and Savior of every true Christian. But I could also tell you some things that suggest I was regenerate before then. For instance, I could see some specific incidences of God's providence, and I did have a desire to learn about God and tell others about Him.<br><br>Which brings me to this question: Do we have any idea how long one might be regenerate before they consciously know the weightiness of their sin and consciously make a confession of faith?<br><br>I never even heard of the Sinner's Prayer until highschool. Never even heard of altar calls until highschool either.

Thank you to everyone who replied. I have been becoming much stronger in the doctrines of grace over the past few months. Though I have believed it for four years, I have found lately there are times when I clung unknowingly to my old beliefs. My question arose from my parents who questioned my wife's salvation because she could not give a powerful and precise moment of salvation. This bothered me as my father is a pastor and has been calvinistic for two decades. Another thank you to Pilgrim and Wes, your words were most helpful.

Marie,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Which brings me to this question: Do we have any idea how long one might be regenerate before they consciously know the weightiness of their sin and consciously make a confession of faith?</font><hr></blockquote><p>Some have considered the new birth to be a process a person experiences, even over a period of years. Such an interpretation is not Biblical. Prior to a certain point in time, a person is not-born-again or regenerated; after that point, the person is. The new birth is a sovereign act of God by his Spirit in which the believer is cleansed from sin and given spiritual birth into God's household. <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I never even heard of the Sinner's Prayer until highschool. Never even heard of altar calls until highschool either.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Both of these terms come from man-centered theologians who put a lot of emphasis on man's decision and response. They generally appeal to the emotions and focus on an act of faith on the part of an individual which God will honor. In other words: If you do this... God will do that. We don't come to Jesus looking for salvation, He comes to us looking for lost sinners. <br><br><br>Wes <br>

sbc_and_reformed,<br><br>Bypassing the fact that some of the Reformers and Puritans used the word "regeneration" in a broader sense rather than how it is used theologically today, it is now used in a narrow sense to mean that sovereign work of God the Spirit whereby He "makes alive" that which was dead. By nature, everyone is born "dead" (in sins; depravity of nature inherited from Adam; aka: Original Sin) and thus before there is any spiritual life whatsoever, God needs to recreate the soul, imparting life; giving eyes to see, ears to hear and a mind and heart that are able to comprehend the things of God. This being "born again" is a one-time and instantaneous act of the Spirit, which generally occurs in conjunction with the hearing/reading of the Word. It is at this time that faith is implanted into the heart which also immediately recognizes Christ and embraces Him unto justification; aka: conversion. Thus there is no intermediate time that passes between the impartation of the new birth and the consequential faith which is expressed by the individual.<br><br>The "leading", "prompts", etc., which a sinner may experience prior to regeneration is often referred to as "prevenient grace" or "preparatory grace". During this time, the individual is still "dead" and cannot be saved.<br><br>For a thorough explanation of regeneration, I would highly recommend Arthur Pink's series found here: REGENERATION.<br><br>In His Grace,

Thanks, Pilgrim! I will read that article. I agree that we are born again instantaneously, since we are either dead in our trespasses or alive in Christ.<br><br>So what I was expeiencing was prevenient grace, since I had head knowledge about Chhrist but no relationship with Him. Here is another question: Can the non-elect experience (or appear to experience) prevenient grace?<br><br>Semper reformanda,<br><br>Marie

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Can the non-elect experience (or appear to experience) prevenient grace?</font><hr></blockquote><p>No, I believe not. Why? Because "prevenient grace" is but part and parcel of the Spirit's leading of the elect alone to Christ. The elect sinner is being "prepped" according to God's sovereign good pleasure up and until the moment when regeneration occurs. Since this is also part of God's secret counsel and work in salvation, beyond this I am unable to speak. It is included in God's providence, but special rather than general, since it belongs to the salvation of those whom He has predestinated in Christ. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,

And merely doing things in Christ's name does not make one saved either. Many will say "Lord, Lord" but Jesus will say to many "Depart from me, for I knew you not."

I am curious about the Calvinist idea of the "elect". Do Calvinists really believe that Jesus only died for some? Do you not believe in Missions, then? For if the elect have been elected since before their birth, then do you even believe in preaching to adults who are not Christians? This seems so strange to me.<br><br>In Christ, Hannah

If every single "all" in the Bible meant every single person, then we would come up with universalism, which most certainly is not what God intends us to believe.<br><br>And yes, we most definitely believe in evangelism and preaching!<br><br>Why not spend some time reading the articles found at http://www.the-highway.com/atonement.html and http://www.the-highway.com/calvinism.html<br>

Another question came to mind. As the chosen children of God, when exactly are we regenerated? Our salvation was wrought upon the cross and repentance comes after regeneration. So then are we still born dead in our sin? Or are we not made alive in Christ until the Spirit works say twenty years down the road? I apologize if I am not being clear in my questioning as well.