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Pilgrim
Pilgrim
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Who departed? #7909
Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:15 PM
Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:15 PM

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The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XXVIII,<br>Of Baptism:<br>III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.[10]<br>10. Heb. 9:10, 13, 19, 21; Mark 7:2-4; Luke 11:38<br><br>The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter XXIX,<br>Of Baptism:<br>IV. Immersion, or dipping of the person in water, is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance.[6]<br>6. Matt. 3:16, John 3:23<br><br>Who is right here? It seems as the Baptists are a bit more restricting in their definition of proper methodology. I am wondering if the early Church held to similar beliefs, or if scripture warrants such an absolute definition?<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william<br><br><br><br>

Re: Who departed? #7910
Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:54 PM
Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:54 PM
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averagefellar,<br><br>William MacIntyre wrote a treatise entitled, The Token of the Covenant or The Subjects, The Mode, and the Nature and Design of Baptism (Free Presbyterian Publications, 1984), which I think deals a death blow to the view that immersion is the ONLY legitimate mode for baptism. He shows from myriad scriptures and by reason that immersion was not practiced by John the Baptist nor by any of the apostles. However, like myself, he does believe that immersion is a legitimate mode along with aspersion and effusion.<br><br>Howard, who hasn't been around lately and evidently is still having computer problems, once offered this booklet for free to all who asked. I would assume that the booklet is copyrighted, although there is no statement to that effect in it. If I was given permission from the publisher to do so, I would put it online. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>Also, John Murray's book, Christian Baptism makes an excellent case against "baptizo = immersion".<br><br>In His Grace,


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Re: Who departed? #7911
Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:39 PM
Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:39 PM
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Posts: 3,434
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Not to open up a can of worms here [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img], but since you are on a Presbyterian board, it is obvious the kind of answer you are going to get.<br>This does not necessarily mean that they are wrong of course, but if you want to get both sides of this issue I would suggest that you ask that same question on a Reformed Baptist board.<br>I would suggest the following site: http://pub54.ezboard.com/fdiscussingreformationfrm1<br><br>Perhaps you might even include some of the things that are written in the articles Pilgrim mentioned in his post to you.<br><br>Tom<br>

Re: Who departed? [Re: Tom] #7912
Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:11 PM
Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:11 PM
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Posts: 13,421
NH, USA
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Tom,<br><br>FYI, this is NOT a "Presbyterian Board". In fact, only ONE individual on Staff is a Presbyterian. [Linked Image]


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Re: Who departed? [Re: Pilgrim] #7913
Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:24 PM
Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:24 PM
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Posts: 1,578
Kentucky
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Tom,<br><br>I am posting a Denominations poll over in the Open Forum. One was done more than three years ago, so I guess it's time for a new one!


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Who departed? [Re: Pilgrim] #7914
Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:26 PM
Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:26 PM
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]In fact, only ONE individual on Staff is a Presbyterian</font><hr></blockquote><p> Tom, That be ME, who was a Baptist for longer than he has been Presby!!!!!<br><br>PS: I think putting too much emphasis on something like this actually divides the attempted unity of God's family. IMHO I side with the Presby's against Baptists on this issue--and of course there is plenty written about it--but still the mode is not the primary importance concerning baptism, or at least should not....


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Re: Who departed? [Re: MarieP] #7915
Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:43 PM
Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:43 PM
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Kentucky
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Yikes! One was posted four months ago!


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Who departed? [Re: Tom] #7916
Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:01 PM
Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:01 PM

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] Not to open up a can of worms here , but since you are on a Presbyterian board, it is obvious the kind of answer you are going to get. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Hopefully, a well thought out and honest one. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img] <br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william

Re: Who departed? [Re: Pilgrim] #7917
Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:54 AM
Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:54 AM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Oh my mistake, I have been on this board for years now and that was my impression. Incert paedo-Baptist instead of "Presbyterian.<br>Out of curiousity, what are the denominations represented here on the staff?<br><br>Tom

Last edited by Tom; Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:04 PM.
Re: Who departed? [Re: J_Edwards] #7918
Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:06 PM
Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:06 PM
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Tom Offline
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I agree, though I side with the Baptists on this particular issue, I don't believe this is something we should divide over. I have seen people on both sides of the debate do that.<br>The only reason I mentioned what I did is to make sure averagefeller was getting information from knowledgeable people on both sides.<br><br>Tom

Re: Who departed? [Re: Tom] #7919
Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:16 PM
Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:16 PM
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Posts: 13,421
NH, USA
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Out of curiousity, what are the denominations represented here on the staff?</font><hr></blockquote><p>Well Tom, I could divulge that "top secret" information to you, but if I did, I would have to eliminate you. [Linked Image]<br><br>Perhaps you should simply look at the various Profiles of the Staff members and see what personal information can be gleaned from them? [Linked Image]<br><br>In His Grace,


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Re: Who departed? [Re: Tom] #7920
Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:27 PM
Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:27 PM
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I guess what I was puzzled at Tom is why you being a Baptist would not trust the other posts of Baptists that you know are on this board. Why would someone need to go to another forum to get the Baptist side of things? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/confused.gif" alt="confused" title="confused[/img]


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Re: Who departed? [Re: Tom] #7921
Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:16 PM
Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:16 PM

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] I agree, though I side with the Baptists on this particular issue, I don't believe this is something we should divide over. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>To me, that's the dilemma. The baptists DID split over this issue, and now we need to make amends. I mean, doesn't the confession say my baptism is improper?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] The only reason I mentioned what I did is to make sure averagefeller was getting information from knowledgeable people on both sides. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>As a former baptist type theologian, I hope I have understood the arguments correctly. I am very familiar with some of the modern Baptist theologians, as well as having read some Spurgeon on the matter. I am interested in the true side.<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william

Re: Who departed? #7922
Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:00 PM
Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,421
NH, USA
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I'm really surprised that rarely does the name, Augustus Strong, every get mentioned here or elsewhere by Baptists? I have read through his Systematic Theology and would think that he is an able defender of the Credo position. He is conservative and quasi-Reformed. Personally, I have benefited from reading his work and would recommend his Systematic Theology far more than someone like Beasley-Murray. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/evilgrin.gif" alt="evilgrin" title="evilgrin[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,


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Re: Who departed? #7923
Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:20 PM
Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:20 PM

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Speaking as a mostly reformed Baptist who grew up as a Lutheran I really don't like the term "who departed". In fact I think that the differences between the two confessions reveal a bias in both camps. It is obvious that the London Baptists viewed the members of the covenant to be people who could "confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus" and so wanted to distinguish themselves between those who considered the members of the covenant to be children of believers also.<br><br>I personally think people who argue over mode needs to find something better to do with their lives. And to consider the London Baptists as having departed from the revealed truth is truly stretching the issue!<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Whether the person baptized is to be wholly immersed, and that whether once or thrice, or whether he is only to be sprinkled with water, <span style="background-color:yellow;">is not of the least consequence: churches should be at liberty to adopt either according to the diversity of climates</span>, although it is evident that the term baptize means to immerse, and that this was the form used by the primitive Church. Book 4 Chapter Chapter 15 section 19 Calvin's Institues</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br><br><br>

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