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#786 - Monday, July 8, 2002 7:12 PM Re: You misunderstand my position brother
Ehud Offline

Registered: Sunday, April 29, 2001
Posts: 264
Loc: n/a
In reply to:

rather than believe that God has already taken care of everything for His elect but not knowing for sure if I could even be one of them.

You see to believe that God has already taken care of everything for His elect involves a something called Faith. Your friend who said that no one could know for sure whether they were elect or not wasn't showing much faith at the moment. You say "how can you know that you are elect and that God has secured you?" I say "by faith."

In reply to:

I see why you think I believe in a "works righteousness." The problem lies in what you consider works. Works are good deeds, acts of righteousness, or keeping of the law. The same term does not apply to humility, open-heartedness, love

That is odd, I thought that the two greatest commandment on which all the law and the prophets hung on dealt with love. The first is to love God with all your heart, and the next is to love your neighbor as yourself. If you tell me that these are not law, then I will say that Christ calls them the greatest commandments. If you tell me that you can even come close to keeping these every second of everyday, then I will say that you have decieved yourself.

In reply to:

So the will is not what saves us, though its compliance with God's will is essential for a man to be saved.

This is a contradiction of statements. For you, man's will is what salvation hinges on. God has done all he can, but now it is up to man to help himself. So now the will is what saves man. Christ blood doesn't save anyone, because Christ died for everyone and that didn't help. God's love didn't save anyone because God loves everybody and that didn't help. The Holy Spirit drawing people got everyone up to par, but really didn't secure anything so now it is up to man. So now it is man's will that makes salvation possible.

In reply to:

Forgive me for sounding so forward, but I must disagree on that point. I have seen no scriptures in the Bible that support the idea that all believers, without exception, will endure to the end.

1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

They fall away to show, as evidence, that they are really not Christians in the first place.

In reply to:

harden their own hearts (Hebrews 3:7-9), and choose to abide in unbelief (Romans 11:20 -- note that they were broken off because of their unbelief,

I would also harden my heart, I would also abide in unbelief forever if I were still a lost sinner dead in my sins. But while I was dead in my sins, God by grace through faith, which was a gift, made me alive in Christ(Eph 2:1-8).

In reply to:

For instance, John chapter 6 which you cited: The assumption that you have that I do not is that just because it is God's will, it must then happen.

John 6:44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

I sure hope that you believe God will raise up beleivers on the last day, or maybe you assume that just because God wills to raise up believers on the last day dosen't mean it must happen.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyoe who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life..."

The Father wills that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, but I guess maybe that wont' happen either. Maybe some who behold the Son and believe will not have eternal life.


#787 - Monday, July 8, 2002 9:47 PM Re: Characteristics of sheep


As usual you are missing the point. I did not say that the Bible added conditions I said you added conditions where they did not exist. Your conditions are :
[color:green]One of the characteristics of Christ's sheep are that they follow Christ. A person who is unregenerate (even if he/she is one of the elect) obviously does not follow Jesus before they come to Him. So your argument that you must be a sheep to respond to the call is invalid.

Your condition is that there must be response before they can be sheep. I say that they Bible doesn't state that just that they are sheep and they hear Christ's call. Their status as sheep (ie: elect even if unregenerate) is first and foremost. That they respond is secondary. They were first sheep, they belong to Christ because the Father gave them to Him. Then they respond not the other way around.

[color:green]If you think Christ's sheep include people that are yet to be saved, then it would be logical to conclude that no one who has ever been in a cult could ever be saved, for they have heeded the voice of another, and therefore cannot be of Christ's sheep.

So now God is impotent to save? Well we like sheep all went our own way remember that verse?? All of us before the effective call of the Gospel, the voice of Christ, heeded another voice, our own, as well as others. But when Christ called us out we came because we are His, and no other. Your logic, if it can be termed that, is in fact illogical.

#788 - Monday, July 8, 2002 10:09 PM Re: Meaning of "separate"

Oh I see you determined the translation, ahh well why didn't you say so in the first place. Well don't worry you've gotten other things wrong besides this, at least your consistent.<br><br>My insistence on getting technical comes from your insistence on making up definitions on the fly. <br><br>God gives us those commands because we still carry our flesh around until our final redemption. So as we are being sanctified we must constantly put to death our "old man" and those are our reminders not because we can lose our salvation. Again if you think those are something we do to keep it then you are referring to a works based salvation no matter how you protest to the contrary.

#789 - Wednesday, July 10, 2002 8:24 AM The Good Shepherd?

Josh,<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> I happen to know a thing or two about sheep; a good shepherd will watch for the sheep and give his life for the sheep, but sometimes sheep stray willingly. I read an account once of a man who was an excellent shepherd, and expert at protecting his sheep, but he had one ornery ewe that kept trying to find "greener pastures" (literally), every time he turned around. The sheep ended up straying from the flock and wriggling through the fence at every opportunity, and would often happily eat of dead grass and drink of polluted water just because it was on the other side of the fence (also literally). This was a big problem for the shepherd, and he tried everything to get her to stop, but he drew the line when her lambs began to pick up the same bad habits. With much grief, he took his hunting knife an killed the ewe. So while a shepherd can guard his sheep, he cannot keep them from straying if they are determined to do so. In the same way, while Christ guards His flock against the wickedness of the world, and gives us warnings and conviction to keep us from straying, there is nothing in the scripture to indicate that He will force us to remain with Him if we are determined to go our own way.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>So now we are to believe that the Good Shepherd destroys his own sheep who willingly stray from him! <br><center></center> <br><center><font class="big">And some people think Calvinists are mean!!</font></center><br><br> The following quote illustrates the good Shepherd's dealing with the sheep who have strayed. The Lord disciplines those He loves so that they will share in His holiness. If he doesn't discipline them, they are not his--they are goats. The ones who hear his voice and follow Him are His. He will bring them to a godly sorrow that will lead them to repentance. <br><blockquote>Matthew 18:11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.</blockquote> <br> Luke 19:10<br><blockquote>For the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost.</blockquote><br>You seem to have forgotten that the sheep are his elect, and the goats are not. You are having to ignore quite a lot of scripture to continue to hold to your belief, but you seem to have no problem doing this at all.<br><br>I believe that you are guilty before God of adding on to the Word of God and taking from the Word of God in your zeal to "prove" your false doctrine-- that you are responsible for keeping yourself saved. You have denied that you believe in a "works salvation", but at the end of your days when you enter into God's presence, could you give all the glory to the God of your salvation, if you are indeed one of His elect? Whether you realize it or not, you are giving glory to another, yourself, because of your belief that it was your own enduring and your own obedience that has saved you! When we do finally see the Lord, we will all realize that we are unprofitable servants and debtors to his kindness and mercy. We will know that if Christ had not continually interceded for us and His Spirit had not given us His help, we would all have failed.<br><blockquote>Luke 17:? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' " </blockquote><br><br>May God take the scales off your eyes so you can see His truth and give the glory to the only One who deserves it.<br>Susan<br><br>

#790 - Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:56 PM The Grip of God

Josh,<br>I don't know if you are familiar with John MacArthur, but I just visited his site and saw that he has recently done a whole series on eternal security called The Grip of God. It is on the archives page, so after tomorrow they will be replaced by the newer broadcasts each day. <br><br> If you want to hear the whole series, you will need to listen to the first one dated 6/17/02 before it is taken off the day after tomorrow. John MacArthur is an excellent teacher. When I was a new Christian, before I ever went to church, I would listen to his program and learn so much from him. His end times views are not the same as most reformed teachers though, but that shouldn't bother you since you aren't reformed. <br>Susan

#791 - Friday, July 12, 2002 11:39 AM John Gill's commentary

Dear Susan,<br><br>This explanation is similar to what some have already tried to produce. It simply boils down to: The book (or tree) of life and the holy city are what the people addressed in this passage think they have, not what they actually possess.<br><br>"wherefore taking away the part of such, is only taking away that which they seemed to have; see (Luke 8:18)"<br><br>A major problem with this interpretation is that this warning is addressed to everyone who reads of the words of the prophecy, elect as well as Sunday christians. So God can take away from those who actually have (Luke 19:26), as well as those who seemed to have. Gill simply begs the question when he assumes that God will take away only from those who seem to have, as he automatically assumes the idea that no one can be blotted out of the book of life, and interprets this passage according to that belief, not any particular scripture.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#792 - Friday, July 12, 2002 11:43 AM What else could Saul do...?

Dear Susan,<br><br>IRT:<br>"We don't like the term God forces us to change, but what else could Saul do when he saw the Lord?"<br><br>There is no implication in scripture that a person cannot fully and finally resist God drawing him or her, Acts 7:51 proves this point. I do believe that it was fully within Paul's capabilities to resist God even when His glory was fully manifested (the same had been done before by Israel during Moses' time and when Jesus walked the earth); for men who are determined to be wicked will not repent, though the truth is plainly shown to them (Luke 16:29-31). I believe that the misunderstanding we have here is about how we define "regeneration," or being "born again." The idea that is believed by Calvinists is that when God draws a man to Him, He recreates (or regenerates) him so that he will have no other choice but to believe in Christ. I agree with the idea that it is necessary for God to do something to a person's heart before they can truly believe on Jesus Christ; for Jesus made it plain that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him first. But the scriptures do not support the idea that a man is recreated so that he can be saved. <br><br>Even the reference you gave about hearts of stone and flesh speaks of those who will still cling to their wickedness (Ezekiel 11:21), proving that some will still resist God even then. You wrote concerning this passage:<br><br>"We had a heart of stone and he gives us a heart of flesh. Hearts of flesh do not turn back into hearts of stone."<br><br>That's a bit of an overdrawn analogy. Hebrews 3:8, 15, and 4:7 all give warnings to believers against hardening our hearts. I take them very seriously.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#793 - Friday, July 12, 2002 11:44 AM Conditions vs. Performance [Re: lazarus]

IRT:<br>"you say your salvation is not contingent on good performance...but it's PRECISELY YOUR ULTIMATE PERFORMANCE/DISPOSITION (i.e., YOU, YOURS) that supposedly determines your entrance into God's presence on that Last Day. How can you deny your own contribution...your 'works'....your 'will'? "<br><br>Ah yes, the classic overdrawing of the other side's case. What I believe is that man does have a responsibility laid upon him by God to be saved. There are several conditions which are neither work nor merit, but simple requirements God demands if we are to be saved and preserved. Several of these are clearly spelled out in scripture (James 4:6, Hebrews 3:15, Luke 18:17).<br><br>As to Romans 9:16, I agree that God is the Author of salvation, and that there is nothing a man can do in his own power to be saved. This passage does not in any way negate the conditions that the Author of salvation has set for those that are to be saved. <br><br>IRT:<br>"As for Calvinism being unscriptural? Please....tell that to the hundreds of Spirit-wrought teachers/preachers/theologians and the countless millions of believers across denominational lines over the centuries who have found it not only scriptural...but the very blessed essence of the Gospel. Might it be YOU with the 'problem' NOT seeing 'grace' in all it's fullness, beauty and wonder?"<br><br>To answer that in order:<br>Gladly and not likely.<br><br>It makes no difference to me if 10 or 10,000,000,000 people all believe the same thing. I would say that there are more Arminians in the world than Calvinists (at least in this century), but this does not prove Arminianism any more than the fact that most of the reformers were Calvinist. No scripture exists that proves unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistable grace, or guaranteed perseverance of the saints (total depravity is debatable, depends on what you mean by it). Neither Calvinism or Arminianism (or any other soteriological doctrine, including mine) is the essence of the Gospel -- Jesus is the essence of the Gospel It's about the One Who saved me, not how I believe I was saved. If a doctrine were the Gospel's essence, then people who couldn't understand predestination (e.g. the senile) could not be saved.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#794 - Friday, July 12, 2002 12:11 PM Re: What else could Saul do...?
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13822
Loc: NH, USA
In reply to:

There is no implication in scripture that a person cannot fully and finally resist God drawing him or her, Acts 7:51 proves this point.

Acts 7:51 "proves" no such thing. JoshT, you are so egocentric in your reading of Scripture that you consistently make God after YOUR own image; correction, far less than YOUR own image. Poor God. . . He tries desperately to save the human race. Perhaps His days are occupied with praying for those who continually reject Him.

Let's look at this passage IN CONTEXT to see what it is truly saying:

Acts 7:51-52 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:"
The Holy Ghost was not directly resisted, i.e., He did not come to these individuals personally and try to persuaded them to repent and believe the gospel. What the text is clearly saying is that the Prophets who were sent by the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel were resisted, even violently. Stephen goes on to show that not only did his listeners' forefathers persecute the prophets, even kill them, but they too were likewise guilty of an even more heinous crime for they crucified the Christ of whom the prophets spoke.

The Scriptures speak of 2 callings; an outward call and an inward call. The outward call is that which we read of in Acts 7:51; Lk 13:34; Rom 10:18ff; et al. The inward call is that which is spoken of in such texts as Jh 10:3ff; 6:45; Rom 8:30; Heb 8:10; Jer 31:33, 34; et al. No mortal creature is capable of resisting God directly. To even posit such a notion is inane. Nebuchadnezzar had to learn this truth the "hard way". What about you?
Daniel 4:34-35 "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: [color:red]and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
In His Grace,

simul iustus et peccator

#795 - Friday, July 12, 2002 1:19 PM Getting personal
Paul_S Offline
Old Hand

Registered: Wednesday, November 7, 2001
Posts: 774
Loc: The Bronx, NY
Josh,<br><br>Are you a member of a local church?<br><br>If so, what is its affiliation; and are the inferences you have drawn here reflective of the teaching of your elders?<br><br>If not, could you briefly explain why not?<br><br>
In Christ,
Paul S

#796 - Friday, July 12, 2002 5:10 PM Recreated or Born Again?
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Saturday, August 25, 2001
Posts: 3553
Loc: Northwest Indiana, USA
Dear Josh,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I agree with the idea that it is necessary for God to do something to a person's heart before they can truly believe on Jesus Christ; for Jesus made it plain that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him first. But the scriptures do not support the idea that a man is recreated so that he can be saved.<p><hr></blockquote><p>John 3:3<br>Jesus answered and said to him, [color:red]"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."</font color=red><br><br>Wes <br>
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts

#797 - Friday, July 12, 2002 8:15 PM Re: You misunderstand my position brother
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Saturday, August 25, 2001
Posts: 3553
Loc: Northwest Indiana, USA
Dear Josh,<br><br>This long thread seems to be like two ships at sea in the fog, both blowing their fog horns at each other. Each making their respective noises without making much impact on where the other one is going. There's not a lot more that can be said without repeating what's already been written. I remain hopeful that you will take to heart some of the sound teaching you've been offered. <br><br>I've noticed that there are two things that keep coming up in your posts. <br><br>1. Man can resist God.<br><br>2. Calvinism is unbiblical.<br><br>The basic principle of Calvinism is the sovereignty of God. This represents the purpose of the Triune God as absolute and unconditional, independent of the whole finite creation, and originating solely in the eternal counsel of His will. He appoints the course of nature and directs the course of history down to the minutest details. His decrees therefore are eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise and sovereign.<br><br>Any system which teaches that the serious intentions of God can in some cases be defeated, and that man, who is not only a creature but a sinful creature, can exercise veto power over the plans of Almighty God, is in striking contrast to the biblical idea of his immeasurable exaltation by which He is removed from all weaknesses of humanity. That the plans of men are not always executed is due to a lack of power, or a lack of wisdom, or both. But since God is unlimited in these and in all other resources, no unforeseen emergencies can arise. To Him the causes for change have no existence. To assume that His plan fails and that he strives to no effect is to reduce Him to the level of His creatures and make Him no God at all.<br><br>Psalm 33:11; 115:3; Isaiah 40:18; Dan 4:35; John 5:26; Romans 11:33-36; Acts 17:25; Rev. 4:11<br><br>Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts

#798 - Saturday, July 13, 2002 8:10 AM Ryle on Assurance [Re: Wes]

Well said Wesley! Also, I believe that Josh does not understand Biblical justification. <br>As Bishop Ryle has written in his book Holiness taken from the chapter Assurance,<br><blockquote>One most common cause[of lack of assurance of salvation], I suspect, is a defective view of the doctrine of justification.<br>I am inclined to think that justification and sanctification are insensible confused together in the minds of many believers. They receive the Gospel truth--that there must be something done IN US as well as something done FOR US, if we are true members of Christ: and so far they are right. But then without being aware of it, perhaps, they seem to imbibe the idea that their justification is, in some degree, affected by something within themselves. They do not clearly see that Christ's work, not their own work--either in whole or in part, either directly or indirectly--is alone the ground of our acceptance with God; that justification is a thing entirely without us, for which nothing whatever is needful on our part but simple faith--and that the weakest believer is as fully and completely justified as the strongest.<br>...Redeemed sinners, justified sinners, and renewed sinners doubtless we must be-- but sinners, sinners, sinners, we shall be always to the very last. They do not seem to comprehend that there is a wide difference between our justification and our sanctification. Our justification is a perfect finished work, and admits no degrees. Our sanctification is imperfect and incomplete, and will be so to the last hour of our life.<br>...In this matter as well as in many others, the old Galatian heresy is the most fertile source of error, both in doctrine and in practice. People ought to seek clearer views of Christ, and what Christ has done for them. Happy is the man who really understands "justification by faith without the deeds of the law."</blockquote><br> <br>Susan

#799 - Saturday, July 13, 2002 11:37 AM Re: Election....
carlos Offline

Registered: Tuesday, May 7, 2002
Posts: 508
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Brother Josht:<br>You Stated :<br><hr width="85%"><br>Already agreed. I have made it clear that I believe this more than once, that God's election according to His foreknowledge precedes our faith. I also agree that election is according to God's purpose and plan, but I believe that God's plan is based on what He foresees in people's hearts.<br><br><hr width="85%"><br>ONCE AGAIN…big difference between saying according to ‘foreknowledge’ and “what He foresees in people’s hearts.” In such verses, it states that God "foreknows" PEOPLE not ACTIONS ( Romans 8:29). BIG DIFFERENCE. Check the grammar. God is foreknowing a personal object. God foreknows (foreloves) his Elect (ver34) as free sovereign choice. I have given you so many scriptures that prove this very fact. Leads me to wonder what you would make of such a passage as 1Peter 1:20. [color:red]The point of Romans 9 is that GOD CHOOSES from the "SAME LUMP" of clay</font color=red>. God is the one that makes one ‘clay’ from differ from another through election and that He purposed within himself. It is his free choice. He decided between Jacob and Esau, without regard to anything they DID. God foresees the good in the people's heart because He caused it to be there (see Old Testament prophesies in Eze, Jer). Also, Paul would not have stated the answers to the objections of election that He did ROMANS in 9:6-24 if He was teaching your Arminian view of election. Matter of fact, WHO would OBJECT to such a view???? Eph 1:4 states that God CHOSE us from the foundation of the world. THE GREEK of the word CHOOSE here is in the middle voice; IT WAS GOD’s OWN DECISION IN HIMSELF. It is interesting that you stated that it his according to His purpose and plan and then you write the BUT. That’s problem within Arminian theology; in one sentence they start with grace, and then comes the BUT, and end up nullifying grace in the same sentence. Rather, The verse of Eph 1:11 ends as such, “ HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE WHO WORKS ALL THINGS [note all things] after the COUNSEL of HIS WILL, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should BE TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY. The very fact that God chooses one because He foresaw how one person would react leaves room for that person to boast and share in the glory. Scripture will not support the statement that it is “based on what He foresees in people’s hearts” . [color:red] <br> Just as God exercised freedom in loving & choosing national Israel ( Deut 10:14-15, Deut 7:6-8, Amos 3:1-2), so does He with believers (Romans 9:6-24, 1 Cor 1:26-31, Eph., etc). IT IS because of GOD that we are in Christ (1Cor 1:30), and this because He chose us to put in Christ . What GOD foresaw was what GOD would DO (Romans 9)!!!!!!!!!!</font color=red> Clearly in the new birth, it is stated the God the holy spirit has the freedom to regenerate whom He will (1 John 3: 6-8). Romans 8:30 states, “whom HE CALLED, these He also JUSTIFIED”. The calling is effectual. This call leads to faith, which in turn results in Justification (Romans 5:1). Before the Call, God Had foreknown (foreloved) and Predestined them from all eternity. That is WHY they receive the effectual Call, which EFFECTS faith and results in Justification, that will eventually lead to ultimate Glorification (including conformity to the image of Christ as purposed (v 28). Your idea of foreseen faith makes no sense of the passage of Romans 8:28-38. [color:red]I end with this summary, that those verses on God’s foreknowing or foreknowledge state that the object of the divine foreknowledge is not the actions of certain people but the people themselves. In this sense it can only mean, as C.E.B Cranfield’s commentary on Romans notes, “that special taking knowledge of a person which is God’s electing grace. . .” Put away your tradition and listen to the text</font color=red>. <br><br><br>I asked: “You said there are conditions to God’s Election. WHERE IN THE SCRIPTURE?”<br><br><hr width="85%"><br>You responded:<br><br>Proverbs 3:34, James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5-6 - Humility<br>Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:7 - Hearing His voice and not hardening your heart<br>Matthew 18:3-4, Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17 - Humble yourself and become like a little child<br>Romans 11:20-23 - Not remaining in unbelief (note in 11:20 that they were broken off because of unbelief, not unbelieving because they were broken off)<br><br><hr width="85%"><br><br>You confuse two things Election and salvation. Election leads to salvation trough the means of sanctification and faith. They are not the same things. Also, election is used in several ways in the bible; some to service and in other contexts to salvation. 2 Thes 2:13-15 : But we should always give thanks to God for you [why?] ..because God has CHOSEN [election] you from the beginning FOR [note the distinction] SALVATION through [means] SANCTIFICATION by the Spirit and FAITH in the truth. And it was FOR THIS that He called you through our Gospel. Once again you have not proven that ELECTION (unto salvation) itself is based on conditions, from the scriptures you have quoted. Indeed, God has also chosen the means by which He will save His elect. You also confuse the election of national Israel as a people and the election to salvation within that nation. See below. It is clear from Romans 8:28-38, that NOTHING CREATED can separate God’s Elect (verse34) from HIS LOVE in Christ. Is there anything ‘not created ‘that can separate the The Elect from Christ???<br><br>Again, I again submit you do not know the context of the book of Romans. For “they are not all Israel[national elect] who are descended from Israel[spiritual elect] (Roman 9:6). Why?? Because “The children of the promise are regarded as descendants (Rom 9:8)”, and “ For though the TWINS were not yet born, and HAD NOT done ANYTHING good or bad, [color:red] in order that GOD’s purpose according to HIS CHOICE might stand, not because of works, but because of HIM who calls( NASB Rom 9:11)</font color=red>, “So then it DOES NOT DEPEND on the MAN WHO WILLs or THE MAN WHO RUNs, BUT ON GOD who has mercy (16), “So then HE has mercy on whom HE DESIRES, and HE hardens whom HE DESIRES (18), “it is the REMANT that will SAVED (27)”, “I say then that God has not reject His people, has HE? May it never be! For I am too am an Israelite, a DESCEDANT of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin, GOD HAS NOT rejected His people, WHOM HE FOREKNEW [foreloved, note that God has not rejected those whom he chose to place a special love upon] …I HAVE KEPT FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN who have not bowed the knee to Baal… [color:red]A REMANT ACCORDING to GOD’s gracious CHOICE (Romans 11:1-5)</font color=red>… God’s has always been choosing those to salvation even within the election of national Israel. The whole point of the previous verses is that Who God has chosen for salvation is conditioned in himself. He preservers those He has chosen. God’s word, purpose and decrees will stand and not fail (Romans 9:5, Isaiah 55: 11, Dan 4:35, Prov 16:9, Prov 19:21). <br><br>Praise to The glory of God alone!<br><br>Brother,<br>Carlos
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)

#800 - Saturday, July 13, 2002 11:47 AM Re: Ryle on Assurance
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Saturday, August 25, 2001
Posts: 3553
Loc: Northwest Indiana, USA
Susan,<br><br>You make a good point. I agree with you that it is very important to understand the difference between justification and sanctification. Arminians have consistantly blurred the lines between these two and that is why works are not optional in their opinion.<br><br><blockquote>[color:red]<font class="big">Justification is an event.<br>Sanctification is a journey.</blockquote></font color=red></font><br><br>Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts

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