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#801 - Sunday, July 14, 2002 2:55 AM Re: Glorification
carlos Offline
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Registered: Tuesday, May 7, 2002
Posts: 508
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Dear Brother Josht,

You Wrote:

The fact that believers will experience glorification does not preclude conditions on this statement. God's promises are not without conditions; Acts 2:21 says that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. This must of course be understood in the context of the rest of scripture, for not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" shall enter His kingdom. So the fact that we are to be glorified does not negate the condition of persevering in the faith (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) and continuing in the grace of God (Acts 13:43); so this passage does not really prove or disprove eternal security.



I beg to differ. Actually there is no clearer text in all Scripture that proves eternal security, based on [color:red]GOD’s immutable PURPOSE of Conformity to Christ of his Elect. Those whom He justified, These He also Glorified. That means that God has Glorified (aorist(past) tense) those whom HE justified. And we know from Scripture (1 Cor 15:51,52, 54, 1 Thess 4:17, Phil 3:21, Rom 8:29, Eph 5:27) that Glorification means “The attainment of the goal to which the elect of God were predestined in the eternal purpose of the Father and it involves the consummation of the redemption secured and procured by the vicarious work of Christ…the instantaneous change that will take place for the whole company of the redeemed when Christ will come again the second time without sin unto salvation”, as stated by John Murray. Clearly that has not occurred yet, however, it is certain to come. See in the passage it is stated that it IS [color:red]GOD”S purpose that the elect be conformed to the image of God’s son (29). CAN GOD”S PREDESTINATING PURPOSES FAIL???? OF COURSE NOT. We have all shown many scriptures that state that God’s purpose will stand. God is sovereign. The reason why Paul declares it in the aorist is because it is certain. This backs up the idea that in verse 28 that God is working the for the good, for who those He has called…to the purpose of conforming them to the image of Christ. Surely the context bears that glorification is nothing less than conformity to Christ’s image. IT IS GOD”S PLAN. As far as the Scriptures are concerned, IT IS AS GOOD AS DONE. The elect will persevere (this is shown throughout Scripture, which many passsages have been pointed out to you numerous times, in whole threads, but they can be re-iterated if desired). God has planned the END and the MEANS. So your points about persevering do not even begin to overthrow the explicit teaching that Paul ends with after he states [color:red]“What then shall we say to this??? GOD IS FOR US…..NOR ANY CREATED THING, shall be able to separate us from the love of God..” ( see below for more on this). Oh yes, Not every one who says LORD, LORD will enter..for it is shown that there are plenty of goats in the visible church along with the sheep, through the parables & illustration in the gospels. [color:red]BY the way, I’ve yet to find anything on this earth that is NOT CREATED. One of the problems that people have is understanding “the rest of the scripture” and not differentiating between saving faith and dead faith, sheep & goats, invisible & visible church and false professions.

You wrote:

Also, the fact that nothing can separate us from God does not mean that we cannot walk away



See that’s where we differ. You like to use the word PLAIN and not to explain way scriptures. WELL HERE IS A PLAIN AND SIMPLE ANTIDOTE for your response above: THEY WENT out from US , but they WERE Not of US; [color:red]for IF [I repeat empathically IF] they had been of US, they WOULD HAVE remained with US; BUT they WENT OUT, in order [note the cause] that it might be SHOWN THAT THEY WERE NOT Of us. (1 John 2:19). I know I have quoted this before, but it has yet to be answered (see below). So we must ask John why is this?? Why is that the “US” remain true. Just as you yourself stated, They are born again and as the result, they LOVE GOD and BELIEVE in God (1 John 5:1). Note that the GREEK tense of the word, believe in Joh 5:1 is a present participle (which represents a continuous action). Why do true believers continue to Love and believe and not apostate? [color:red]BECAUSE HIS[GOD's] SEED ABIDES in HIM…NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD PRATICIES SIN” (1 John 1:9 ). You can’t get any clearer than that. What is falling away?? isn't that a lifestyle of sinning?? The very point of the Scripture that God's SEED is the main reason why they don't practice a lifestyle of sinning. Thus, I reject your response which, in my view, has not answered the "BECAUSE" of the text. I WILL REPEAT AGAIN: GOD'S (The Father, The Son, & Holy Spirit) PURPOSE CANNOT FAIL. HE HAS PURPOSED HIS ELECT (v34) TO BE CONFROMED TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST.

Also, I have been meaning to ask this question, “Does ‘Eternal Life’ mean “Eternal” or “temporal”??? Jesus’ sheep “HAVE” eternal life.

You wrote:

The statement that God will complete us in Christ is a conditional statement. For while God is not unfaithful to change us from glory to glory, He does not force this change, but requires that one be a willing vessel. 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows that it is possible for a man not be yielded to God so that the Holy Spirit can work the fruits thereof in him. So yes, God does labor faithfully to complete a good work in us, but He will not do so with a hardened heart. But if we open our ears to Him, then we too can have confidence as Paul did in the Philippians, that God will complete His work in us.



See, in Believers, it is GOD who is “AT WORK IN US, [color:red]both to WILL and TO WORK FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE. Believers have “Saving Faith” and saving faith means that they are trusting in God continually, (not just intellectually but as a lifestyle), although not perfectly. Those of true, good ‘soil’ as shown in Jesus Parable of Matthew 13:3-9,19-23 are those who Hear (present participle = continuous hearing) and understand (present participle), who indeed bears fruit. My point is that the true believer continues to bear fruit; his new nature was created to bear fruit & do good works (Eph 2:10). His new nature gives him a desire to do these works [although not perfectly, due to the flesh, the devil, and the world]. Man acts according to his desires/motives. See Pilgrim for great discussion on the will of man. In the Covenant of Grace it is stated “A NEW HEART also will I give you [note recreation/change of the desires is not FORCING]…And I WILL put MY spirit within you, and CAUSE [note this] YOU to WALK in MY STATUES, and YE SHALL KEEP my JUDGMENTS, and do them.” That only confirms what Eph 1 , Romans 8, 9, John 6, John 10, John 17 explicitly state, (mind you, you will not find stronger language in all Scripture of Christ praying for His people). As was the case with Peter, Christ is praying for His people and thus they persevere. The Holy Spirit effectually works in the lives of the believers. Yes, at times we falter and disobey. But that’s when we, AS SONS, are scourged for our good (Heb 12). We loose fellowship, NOT SONSHIP. Ultimately, God’s plan will stand and Christ LOOSES NONE of whom the Father has given Him. By the way, God can work in any heart that He wants to for HIS OWN purpose. Do not the Proverbs state that everyone’s heart is in God’s hand and turns as He wills it. [color:red]The statement of Phil 1:6 is not conditional (you are imposing your theology onto the text)..it is basically a parallel of Romans 8:28-30. That is.. What God starts in believer, He finishes, because it HIS PLAN. Your comments lead to the conclusion that God is somehow unable to complete HIS PLANS and PURPOSES.

Praise be ALONE to the GOD of all Glory and GRACE.
Brother in Christ,
Carlos
(oh by the way, I hope to find some time on Monday or Tuesday to answer your "perseverance" response).
_________________________
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)

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#802 - Sunday, July 14, 2002 10:23 AM Re: Election.... [Re: carlos]
carlos Offline
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Registered: Tuesday, May 7, 2002
Posts: 508
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Dear Brother JoshT,<br><br>Here's a follow-up that I forgot to expand upon . . . When I asked the question "who would Object?", I was speaking in terms of it as an unfair objection being raised against the Arminian view of election (verse 14). Hopefully this will clarify that one statement that I made.<br><br>Carlos
_________________________
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)

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#803 - Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:03 PM Re: perseverance
carlos Offline
Addict

Registered: Tuesday, May 7, 2002
Posts: 508
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
_________________________
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)

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#804 - Sunday, July 21, 2002 9:16 AM Forgot "DO NOT" [Re: carlos]
carlos Offline
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Registered: Tuesday, May 7, 2002
Posts: 508
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Here is a restatemnt on on the last point regarding HEb 10, I meant to say: <br><br>From these such sayings, as others mentioned earlier, it is evident that the Writer of the Hebrews interprets these “hard passages” Himself. There are only two classes of people. Those who do NOThave have faith and fall away and Those who have faith and keep their souls. <br><br>Somehow, the word NOT got removed when I copied my document into the post. Sorry for the Confusion<br><br><br>Carlos<br>
_________________________
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)

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#805 - Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:59 PM Re: Resisting God
Tom Online   content
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3909
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Josh<br><br>You have sited a few times that John 6:37 does not prove that someone can't resist the Holy Spirit’s drawing.<br>I must beg to differ with you, the words "shall/will come to Me" clearly indicate that they will come to Christ.<br><br>You also said:" I have seen this in effect too many times from my Baptist friends. I have made it a goal to disprove the concept of eternal security. Though it is not quite the same thing, unconditional election is closely related. I do not do this for my health, but to warn others of the dangers this doctrine poses."<br><br>I sort of understand where you are coming from in this. For I have argued against some who claim to be Calvinists, but who are also antinominian(sp?).<br>But the regulars on the Highway and most Baptists (like my self) are not antinominian(sp?).<br><br><br><br>

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#806 - Monday, July 22, 2002 8:08 AM Hope he returns [Re: carlos]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Carlos,<br>You gave Josh T many excellent answers. I am afraid that he has left the forum for now. I sent him a PM over a week ago with A PRIMER ON THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION<br>by Rev. DeLacy A. Andrews Jr. that I posted a while back, but he has never read it, so I believe that he has left. Perhaps he will return to check this thread and consider again what you have patiently and faithfully presented to him.<br>Susan

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#807 - Tuesday, July 30, 2002 8:32 AM Re: Hebrews 6 [Re: J_Edwards]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Joe,

I don't see how Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 prove me wrong. It is my guess that you are trying to prove that those whose names are not in the Lamb's book of life were never there to begin with. While it is true, as the scriptures you cited prove, that some people were never written in the book of life, I believe that it is easily understandable from Revelation 22:19 that other people were written in, but will have their names blotted out.

IRT:
"Then I submit that you do not understand Reformed Doctrine. Man does have a will, it is not just a free as the Arminian thinks it is. Man makes decisions! They make decisions based on the knowledge they possess. Thus they can turn down a genuine offer. They reason they turn it down though is because they have not been changed by the Holy Spirit to see it (John 3:1-8). This man until he is changed by the Holy Spirit will not seek after God (Rom 3). He can not seek after God because he is dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2). Thus as John 1:5 says 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

Correct me if I am wrong, but the word 'opportunity' by itself indicates a possibility. Since no man can come to Christ unless God draws him, a person who is not drawn would have no opportunity to be saved at all. So how can you believe that an unsaved person can have a missed 'opportunity' to be saved and still believe in unconditional election?

I wrote:
"Additionally, the author's whole argument:

"People can go to church for years and hear the gospel over and over again, even be faithful church members, and never really make a commitment to Jesus Christ. That kind of person is addressed here."....Is clearly contradicted by vs 9, which says,
'But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation (literally: 'that you are holding fast salvation'), though we thus speak.'"

And you wrote:
"The word "But" refers to a different audience!

This term shows a change of audience and a move towards a change from a message of warning to a message of encouragement. That the address is to believers is further confirmed by the expression of confidence that “better things” [not the same things] could be said of them (as compared to those who were being warned in the preceding verses)."

You misunderstood my statement. The author of the article you sent me was trying to prove that the 'different audience' you speak of (the same ones he addressed in vs 1-5) were not saved. I was trying to show the errors in his logic. The reason why it is significant that they were saved is because the warnings in vs 4-8 were given to them, thereby clearly showing that falling from the faith is possible.


In Christ,
Josh

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#808 - Tuesday, July 30, 2002 8:38 AM You sorely misjudge me
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Susan,

IRT:
"So now we are to believe that the Good Shepherd destroys his own sheep who willingly stray from him!"

Actually, it is God the Father Who cuts off the unfaithful and fruitless branches (John 15:2, 6, Romans 11:22) and destroys them.

I agree with what you are saying about God chastening and trying to bring back those who stray. Note that the shepherd in my story did the same to try to keep this ewe on the right side of the fence. Though God is merciful and patient, some feel it necessary to try to abuse His grace and love; I do not believe that such people will enter the kingdom of God.

IRT:
"You seem to have forgotten that the sheep are his elect, and the goats are not. You are having to ignore quite a lot of scripture to continue to hold to your belief, but you seem to have no problem doing this at all."

I never said the sheep weren't His elect, and I don't see how that proves eternal security either way: for those who are God's are His to do with as He pleases.

IRT:
"I believe that you are guilty before God of adding on to the Word of God and taking from the Word of God in your zeal to "prove" your false doctrine-- that you are responsible for keeping yourself saved."

In my defense, I call 2 Peter 1:5-11

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

I do not believe that men can save themselves or be saved of their own power. But if we yield to God, unlike the man that Paul speaks of who lacks these things, He will faithfully work in us these things so that we will never fall.

Satan can quote scripture too, but Jesus replied "it is also written..." Just because I do not subscribe to your interpretation of the Bible does not mean that I have added or taken away from God's word, but simply that I have understood it in the context in which it was written.

IRT:
"You have denied that you believe in a 'works salvation', but at the end of your days when you enter into God's presence, could you give all the glory to the God of your salvation, if you are indeed one of His elect? Whether you realize it or not, you are giving glory to another, yourself, because of your belief that it was your own enduring and your own obedience that has saved you!"

The glory goes to God, fulfilling my responsibilities and reasonable service to God are nothing to boast of. Just as in the verse you cited in Luke 17, enduring and obeying God don't make me anything special or merit my receiving glory. The fact that I have nothing to glory of concerning my remaining in Christ does not prove unconditional security, it simply proves that those who endure to the end don't deserve any credit for doing so, because they have simply done what they were commanded (and empowered) by God to do. Hence this is not a 'works salvation,' but conditional salvation.

IRT:
"We will know that if Christ had not continually interceded for us and His Spirit had not given us His help, we would all have failed."

I agree. But some people resist His Spirit (Acts 7:51) and despise His grace (Hebrews 10:29). These will be damned.

Let me also say that you judge me wrongly. You make too many assumptions about what I believe and do from you Calvinist paradigms; and you judge me according to them, not the word of God. You accuse me of taking glory for myself when it goes to God alone. Have I ever stated that? And if not, how can you judge my heart? Your judgement is premature, illogical, and sinful. If people have absolutely nothing to do with obtaining salvation, then Acts 2:40 and 1 Timothy 4:16 are meaningless. Instead of throwing railing accusations which you can't back up at me, why don't you check my sources?


In Christ,
Josh

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#809 - Tuesday, July 30, 2002 8:51 AM Re: Meaning of "separate"
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Prestor John,<br><br>IRT:<br>"Oh I see you determined the translation, ahh well why didn't you say so in the first place."<br><br>That's why I said "the meaning of 'separate' in this passage," not "the literal denotation of 'separate'."<br><br>IRT:<br>"God gives us those commands because we still carry our flesh around until our final redemption. So as we are being sanctified we must constantly put to death our "old man" and those are our reminders not because we can lose our salvation."<br><br>Those commands are not just reminders, but often include consequences for those who disobey them.<br><br>IRT:<br>"Again if you think those are something we do to keep it then you are referring to a works based salvation no matter how you protest to the contrary."<br><br>Not really. You assume that anything believed or heard by a man is considered 'works.' The scripture teaches no such concept (it distinguishes stronly between faith and works). But if you believe that it is unbiblical to think that there is something that a man can do to be saved, then I suggest you read Acts 2:40 and 1 Timothy 4:16.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

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#810 - Tuesday, July 30, 2002 8:53 AM Re: Characteristics of sheep
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Prestor John,<br><br>IRT:<br>"Your condition is that there must be response before they can be sheep. I say that they Bible doesn't state that just that they are sheep and they hear Christ's call. Their status as sheep (ie: elect even if unregenerate) is first and foremost. That they respond is secondary. They were first sheep, they belong to Christ because the Father gave them to Him. Then they respond not the other way around."<br><br>Your position is simply based on a Calvinist presupposition. You are effectively begging the question, for you simply assume that your belief on being one of Christ's sheep is correct because you accept Calvinism. The scripture does not say that one is one of Christ's sheep before he or she is saved, you simply read that into the passage with no supporting evidence.<br><br>I wrote:<br>"If you think Christ's sheep include people that are yet to be saved, then it would be logical to conclude that no one who has ever been in a cult could ever be saved, for they have heeded the voice of another, and therefore cannot be of Christ's sheep."<br><br>Then you wrote:<br>"So now God is impotent to save? Well we like sheep all went our own way remember that verse?? All of us before the effective call of the Gospel, the voice of Christ, heeded another voice, our own, as well as others. But when Christ called us out we came because we are His, and no other. Your logic, if it can be termed that, is in fact illogical."<br><br>So then your own logic turns against you, for if what you said is true (All of us before the effective call of the Gospel, the voice of Christ, heeded another voice, our own...), then it proves my point, because Christ's sheep do not follow another's voice. I did not say that Christ was impotent to save, that is simply the end result of your logic when compared to scripture.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh<br>

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#811 - Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:00 AM Haven't left, just been busy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Susan,<br><br>No, I haven't left the forum. Over the past two weeks, I have been busy with a tough field exercise that the Army has been putting me through, my finals for my course, and moving back to my home state (I am currently en route). I have read your posts and shall respond to them when I can.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

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#812 - Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:21 AM Re: You sorely misjudge me
lazarus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 799
Loc: Morgantown, WV
JoshT - if you are in the military...bless you and your service to the Country. If not....never mind....you're just another Arminian quack. <br><br>You wrote:<br><br>[color:blue] ...it simply proves that those who endure to the end don't deserve any credit for doing so, because they have simply done what they were commanded (and empowered) by God to do. Hence this is not a 'works salvation,' but conditional salvation.</font color=blue><br><br>"Conditional Salvation"? <br><br>So, salvation is NOT of the Lord as Jonah wrote...it's actually of Him [color:red]AND</font color=red> us? <br><br>I must be synergism since God can't save ANYONE without their cooperation. <br><br>The bottom line is that we bring SOMETHING to the equation? Namely our will/effort/decision....i.e., WORKS! <br><br>In direct contrast to:<br><br>Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that [color:red]willeth</font color=red>, nor of him that [color:red]runneth</font color=red>, but of God that sheweth mercy. <br><br>How can you not see this?<br><br>By Grace Alone, <br>

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#813 - Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:55 AM Re: Meaning of "separate"
lazarus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 799
Loc: Morgantown, WV
JoshT: you wrote:<br><br>[color:blue]You assume that anything believed or heard by a man is considered 'works.' The scripture teaches no such concept (it distinguishes stronly between faith and works). </font color=blue><br><br>The Bible also teaches that the works AS WELL AS the exercise of our wills (which you erroneously equate with 'faith') are NOT formal causes of our salvation....<br><br>Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that [color:red]willeth</font color=red>, nor of him that [color:red]runneth</font color=red>, but of God that sheweth mercy. <br><br>It's God's mercy/grace that SAVES. <br><br>Nobody can work hard enough to earn God's favor ... no one can want/will it enough either. <br><br>In Him,

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#814 - Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:10 PM Re: Haven't left, just been busy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Josh,<br>Glad you are back again. You might be interested in what I posted on the "What's the point?" thread about our sermon Sunday. Our pastor used an illustration for his sermon from an experience he had as a soldier. <br>If you check your control panel, you will see that there is a personal message I sent you (unless it has been deleted by now). Let me know if it is gone, and I will send it again.<br>Susan

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#815 - Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:51 PM Re: Hebrews 6
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, December 9, 2001
Posts: 4843
Loc: USA
YOU SAID:

[color:red] While it is true, as the scriptures you cited “prove,” that some people were never written in the book of life [Rev 13:8; 17:8], I believe that it is easily understandable from Revelation 22:19 that other people were written in, but will have their names blotted out.

So, you believe in the reprobation of some, (thus, to some extent election) but also the free-choice of others. Uhmmm…sounds like someone is attempting to ride a fence to me . Go back to my original post on the definition of the Book of Life and I think a clearer picture exists.


[color:blue]IRT:
"Then I submit that you do not understand Reformed Doctrine. Man does have a will, it is not just a free as the Arminian thinks it is. Man makes decisions! They make decisions based on the knowledge they possess. Thus they can turn down a genuine offer. They reason they turn it down though is because they have not been changed by the Holy Spirit to see it (John 3:1-8). This man until he is changed by the Holy Spirit will not seek after God (Rom 3). He can not seek after God because he is dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2). Thus as John 1:5 says 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."[color:red]Correct me if I am wrong, but the word 'opportunity' by itself indicates a possibility. Since no man can come to Christ unless God draws him, a person who is not drawn would have no opportunity to be saved at all. So how can you believe that an unsaved person can have a missed 'opportunity' to be saved and still believe in unconditional election?

First, I do not see the term [color:red]'opportunity' used? Maybe an illustration will help. Think of a man in a sound proof box and is completely shut off from the outside world. He can not see any light from outside. The box is completely sealed. He is in darkness. He is dead in trespasses and sin. He is blind, deaf, crippled in spiritual things.

Now all around that box is the light of God [a real offer], but the man in the box does not comprehend it, because he is “dead” inside of his box to everything outside of it and thus cannot see it. He is free to make decisions inside his box, but the Gospel is not in his box, thus he can not comprehend it. A genuine offer is made, but because of his sin he cannot see it (comprehend it). Thus Jesus says a man must be born again before he “sees” the Kingdom of God (John 3). Thus, before a person may be born again God must break through his box (election/calling) at which time comprehension of the Gospel become irresistible. (as all illustration it is limited, but brings to point that a real offer can be made and not be comprehended)


[color:red]I wrote: "Additionally, the author's whole argument: "People can go to church for years and hear the gospel over and over again, even be faithful church members, and never really make a commitment to Jesus Christ. That kind of person is addressed here."....Is clearly contradicted by vs 9, which says, 'But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation (literally: 'that you are holding fast salvation'), though we thus speak.'" And you wrote: "The word "But" refers to a different audience! This term shows a change of audience and a move towards a change from a message of warning to a message of encouragement. That the address is to believers is further confirmed by the expression of confidence that “better things” [not the same things] could be said of them (as compared to those who were being warned in the preceding verses)." [color:red] You misunderstood my statement. The author of the article you sent me was trying to prove that the 'different audience' you speak of (the same ones he addressed in vs 1-5) were not saved. I was trying to show the errors in his logic. The reason why it is significant that they were saved is because the warnings in vs 4-8 were given to them, thereby clearly showing that falling from the faith is possible.

I DID NOT mis-understand, for I am saying it IS A DIFFERENT AUDIENCE in vs 1-5 (unsaved ) then in vs 9 (saved), which is clearly shown in my post. I guess than we need to re-word Paul’s wording in Rom 8 by your definition to read :

Rom 8:3539 (Josh Translator Version JTV) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ, [only me myself]? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword [oh. no just myself]? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors [unless I mess up] through him that loved us. For I am persuaded [well for the most part that is], that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, [but I can separate myself by my works, though I was saved by grace].

Or would you rather translate Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling [as long as I work it all right for I alone am sovereign and not God], and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy [that is if only I work it all out right, for I alone am sovereign and not God],

I am sorry JoshT that just does not make sense. See I serve a Holy Sovereign God who controls all. He never left anything to chance. I do not believe Christ’s blood ever lost its power. Christ says, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” Here Jesus says that those who follow him, those who are his sheep, are given eternal life. He further says that “no one shall snatch them out of my hand” (v. 28). Now some have objected to this that even though no one else can take Christians out of Christ’s hand, we might remove ourselves from Christ’s hand. But that seems to be pedantic quibbling over words--does not “no one” also include the person who is in Christ’s hand [that is the Christian himself Josh!!]? Moreover, we know that our own hearts are far from trustworthy. Therefore if the possibility remained that we could remove ourself from Christ’s hand, the passage would hardly give the assurance that Jesus intends by it. But more importantly, the most forceful phrase in the passage is “they shall never perish” (v. 28). The Greek construction (ou me plus aorist subjunctive) is especially emphatic and might be translated more explicitly, “and they shall certainly not perish forever.” This emphasizes that those who are Jesus’ “sheep” and who follow him, and to whom he has given eternal life, shall never lose their salvation or be separated from Christ--they shall “never perish.”

There are several other passages that say those who believe have “eternal life.” One example is John 3:36: “He who believes in the Son has eternal life” (also John 5:24; 6:47; 10:28; 1 John 5:13). Now if this is truly eternal life that believers have, then it is life that lasts forever with God. It is a gift of God that comes with salvation (it is put in contrast to condemnation and eternal judgment in John 3:16-17, 36; 10:28). Arminians have objected that “eternal life” is simply a quality of life, a type of life in relationship with God, which one can have for a time and then lose. But this objection does not seem to be convincing in view of the clear nuance of unending time involved in the adjective eternal (Gk. aionios “eternal, without end”). Certainly there is a special quality about this life, but the emphasis in the adjective eternal is on the fact that it is the opposite of death; it is the opposite of judgment and separation from God; it is life that goes on forever in the presence of God. And he who believes in the Son has this “eternal life” (John 3:36).

Evidence in Paul’s writings and the other New Testament epistles also indicates that those who are truly born again will persevere to the end. There remains “no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1); therefore, it would be unjust for God to give any kind of eternal punishment to those who are Christians--no condemnation remains for them, for the entire penalty for their sins has been paid. Then in Romans 8:30, Paul emphasizes the clear connection between God’s eternal purposes in predestination and his working out of those purposes in life, together with his final realization of those purposes in “glorifying” or giving final resurrection bodies to those whom he has brought into union with Christ: “And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Here Paul sees the future event of glorification as such a certainty in God’s settled purpose that he can speak of it as if it were already accomplished (“he also glorified”). This is true of all those who are called and justified--that is, all those who truly become Christians. Another example of assurance that believers will persevere to the end is found in Paul’s statement to the Philippians: “I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). It is not true that God’s good work that began in them will continue and will be completed at the day Christ returns? Peter tells his readers that they are those “who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Peter 1:5). The word guarded (Gk. phroureo) can mean both “kept from escaping” and “protected from attack,” and perhaps both kinds of guarding are intended here: God is preserving believers from escaping out of his kingdom, and he is protecting them from external attacks. Josh I believe in God Almighty the one that offers the gospel of eternal life. Any other gospel, is another gospel, and not worthy of consideration.
_________________________
Reformed and Always Reforming,

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