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Tom
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#8502 - Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:26 AM another discussion on baptism  

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<center>This discussion was: [Linked Image] [color:red]The post and replies were moved from:</font color=red> "Calculating Christmas" thread. - Pilgrim</center><br><br>Howard, I do hold to the paedo position (after being credo for 20 years). I have seen so many situations where people have taken years upon years to change their mind on this subject. I think it is unfair for you to be so impatient with your brothers in Christ in regards to this. I also think it is unfair for you to presuppose that he, or any other person of the credo position, hasn't ever studyed it, isn't studying it now, or doesn't ever plan to study it again without you telling them they're wrong. Give them time. There are much better things which you could be discussing than bringing in to question the validity of a persons salvation by calling them rebellious in regards to baptism. If you want to encourage people in this matter and help them in their studies, then do so lovingly and not forcibly.<br><br>Chris

Last edited by Pilgrim; Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:30 PM.
#8503 - Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:15 AM Re: Calculating Christmas  

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Chris, I honestly want baptists to see the truth as we both have .<br><br>Time is alas not mine to give.<br><br>Did you not think to yourself on discovering the truth of infant baptism after 20 years of credo "Why did'nt I learn this before ?" <br><br>I realise it is The Holy Spirit that leads one to all truths and we cannot hurry Him except through our prayers of course. However it is our duty , as we see fit , to lead folk into these truths as I was once lead (still am being led by many here).<br><br>Please dont think me as being unfair towards baptists - I merely wish what is clearly best for their children. I have nothing to gain from this . <br><br>As regards rebellion , we ALL rebel albeit unwittingly in some cases . I believe my former credo position to be rebellious against the Word of God . All ex-baptists do but most wont voice it for fear of upsetting men. <br><br>We should share these truths so baptists can see what we can see. As you know , there is nothing much left to say on infant baptism on the Highway or anywhere else . The only thing to do is to implore baptists to turn of their pc for a year or and go read some books .<br><br>I aint no diplomat Chris , sorry about that , but there by the Grace of God go I.<br><br>IMHO a correct view of Infant baptism will only honour our Great God Jehovah and thus His Church .<br><br>You should remember that it was baptists who started this nonsense some 500 years ago - and we still tolerate them ! (he-he)<br><br>howard

#8504 - Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:16 PM Re: Calculating Christmas  
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Howard,

How is it you can't "hear" what both Gerry and Chris... and Wes, Joe, myself and others have written to you about this matter, re: baptism? No offense, but it would appear that you are absolutely obsessed with this one particular subject, to the unfortunate exclusion of others, which are far more important. For example, Gerry rightly and lovingly tried to steer you to consider the "sprinkling of the heart" by the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament, the great majority of Jews where also caught up with the outward symbol of circumcision and they had to be reminded constantly to "circumcise the foreskin of your hearts". (cf. Deut 10:16; 30:6; Lev 26:41; Jer. 4:4; Rom 2:28, 29; Col 2:11) [Linked Image]. You also asked this:
Please dont think me as being unfair towards baptists - I merely wish what is clearly best for their children.
I have asked this question of you in another thread, but you evidently didn't see it or perhaps you chose to ignore it for one reason or another? But I will ask you again here: How are covenant children harmed? what precious commodity is denied? what essential element is lacking? if they are not sprinkled with the waters of baptism? Why is baptism "best for their children"? If the children of believing parents are faithful in rearing them in the love and admonitions of the Lord, impressing upon them their need of Christ, either for the first time or by renewal, does baptism or the lack of it cause some negative thing to come upon these children? Do you believe, perhaps, that God in some way, withholds spiritual and/or temporal blessings from believing parents who rear their children in the Scriptures and by example of faithfulness in life and service if they don't baptize their infants? WHAT?? What exactly is the advantage to either the parents or the children in baptism?

Trust me, I do believe that baptism is important and that children should be baptized as a sacrament of the Lord. But I want to know what it is that you feel Baptists are lacking in themselves and/or in the children if they are not baptized? Can you enumerate on this for me please?

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In His Grace,


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#8505 - Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:06 PM Re: Calculating Christmas [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Pilgrim,<br><br>I would appreciate if this subdiscussion on baptism were moved elsewhere. It doesn't have anything to do with Christmas.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#8506 - Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:31 PM Re: Calculating Christmas [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Pilgrim<br><br>I can't presume to know exactly what Howard believes, but it would appear from the importance he places on this aspect, that he believes in "presumptive regeneration". Do you understand why it appears that way to me?<br><br>Tom

#8507 - Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:54 PM Re: Calculating Christmas [Re: Tom]  
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In reply to:
it would appear from the importance he places on this aspect, that he believes in "presumptive regeneration". Do you understand why it appears that way to me?

No Tom, I'm not privy to why you think that this is true. But you can certainly share why you think he does. And of course, you could always ask him what he actually believes in this regard as well. wink Realistically, those who hold to "baptismal regeneration" are generally far more ardent in their insistent that infants be baptized than those who hold to "presumptive regeneration", as several here hold to. But I have not seen any indication that Howard embraces "baptismal regeneration" in anything he has written, as best as I can recall.

In His Grace,



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simul iustus et peccator

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#8508 - Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:46 PM importance of Baptism  

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Howard,<br>Both Paedos and Credos agree that believers should be baptized. If my memory serves me, I believe that you may need to get your own house in order first before you have a right to preach to others about not baptizing their children! <br>Susan

#8509 - Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:49 AM Re: Calculating Christmas [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Pilgrim<br><br>You are correct; I should have asked Howard to see if he actually does believe in "presumptive regeneration".<br>(Howard if you are reading this post, do you believe in "presumptive regeneration"? I apologize if I am wrong about this.)<br>There are a few reasons why I said those things.<br>1. He has given the link to at least one author who believes in "presumptive regeneration".<br>2. It appeared that he was the one (though I could be mistaken) that told Dr. MacMahon to come to this site. Dr. MacMahon it would seem is very anti-credo, at least from what I have read.<br>3. There are probably exceptions of course, but based on Howard's obvious contempt for credo-baptism and apparently other teaching by Baptists. I wondered whether or not it is common for people who believe in "presumptive regeneration" to have this attitude.<br>For the most part, I have not seen this attitude from paedo-baptists that do not believe in "baptismal regeneration".<br><br>I could possibly be mistaken by coming to these conclusions and if so hopefully I will find the truth to that aspect. <br>But I guess the bottom line is something has caused Howard to believe this way, if it is not teaching with a “presumptive regeneration” slant, I have no idea what it is.<br><br>For those who may believe in “presumptive regeneration”, but do not agree with the way Howard is acting towards Baptists, I mean no offence to you.<br>I hope you understand, I am just trying to get to the bottom of the issue.<br><br>Tom<br>

#8510 - Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:04 AM Re: Calculating Christmas  

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Being new to CT , I still have much to study. I do not believe in BR and I am stuggling with PR at the moment. Calvin and the Reformers held to PR I believe (?) and my views re-baptism are laid out in the WCF - as most here should know by now.<br><br>Meanwhile , I shall do you all a service by not talking baptism for a while . It would far more beneficial if we were to pray that baptists see Biblical Baptism anyway IMHO , as there is nothing new speak about .<br><br>howard

#8511 - Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:19 AM Re: importance of Baptism  

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What are you talking about ?<br><br>howard

#8512 - Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:56 AM Re: importance of Baptism  

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Howard,<br>I saw a post of yours a while back where you mentioned that you were seeking baptism for your wife, but there are no Presyterian churches in your area and you did not want a Baptist minister, who would not also be willing to baptize your children were you to have any, to administer it. Maybe you have already dealt with this? If so, sorry to bring it up.<br>Susan

#8513 - Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:59 AM Re: importance of Baptism  

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Susan , my wife still seeks baptism (Cathrine is 37). Is this what you mean about getting my house in order ?<br><br>Please explain the import of your statement as it can be taken with offence................<br><br>howard

#8514 - Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:47 PM Re: importance of Baptism  

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Howard,<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Please explain the import of your statement as it can be taken with offence................</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>I know that you will not appreciate what I have to say to you, but I was trying to point out to you, probably not very gently though, that you have a double standard. You are judging your Baptists brothers and sisters who because of conscience and how they understand the Scriptures will not baptize their children until there is a credible profession of faith, and all the while you are refusing to fellowship with other Christians who differ with you regarding their view of infant Baptism. It is obvious that your wife needs to be Baptized if she is a believer! How can you condemn those who don't give "the sign of the Covenant" to their infants, yet are eager to baptize all those who profess faith in Christ, when you have not yet seen to your own wife's baptism? I think your predjudice against Baptists and lack of love for them is causing you to be disobedient to God's commands regarding corporate worship and Baptism. <br>Susan

#8515 - Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:26 AM Re: importance of Baptism  

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Firstly , I condemn or judge no one here. My wife will be baptised when I can find a pastor who understands baptism. <br><br>Secondly, you are completely clue-less as to my love for the brethren .<br><br>Thirdly, my "predjudice" against baptist doctrine has led several baptists to re-study the issue.<br>(It was baptist predjudice against paedobaptists that helped me too ).<br><br>Fourthly , the only corporate worship happening in Bournemouth is arminian which I will have no truck with .<br><br>Fifthly , no , I dont' appreciate what you have to say to me - but thanks anyway !<br><br>howard

#8516 - Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:52 AM Re: importance of Baptism  

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Howard,<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Secondly, you are completely clue-less as to my love for the brethren .</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I am sorry if I have misjudged you, brother. I am glad to hear that you love your Baptist brothers. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img]<br>Isn't there a reformed church within an hour from you? We have to drive 50 minutes to our church and we don't agree with their position on Baptism, but we are being richly blessed there. You do not have to join a church to be able to participate in their worship, teaching, and all the benefits of Christian fellowship. <br>Susan

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