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#917 - Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:08 AM Re: God's sovereignty  
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JoshT,

In reply to:

[color:"blue"]I know it seems like I argue from a position that is atypical for Arminians, but as I have pointed out in several posts, I am not an Arminian.


Yes, I have read in several places where you adamantly deny that you are not an Arminian. But I must admit, that I cannot find where anything you believe is so different from Arminianism that would warrant your claim. [Linked Image]

Perhaps you would be so kind to explain what the differences are between what you understand Arminianism, both in it's original and modern forms and yourself.

I must confess, that I do get a large chuckle every time I read that classic semi-Pelagian/Arminian statement,

I believe that God is sovereign. [color:red]BUT I also believe that God has given up His sovereignty and given men a 'free-will'." [Linked Image]


In His Grace,


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#918 - Sat Aug 24, 2002 9:41 AM Re: Foreknowledge of God  
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In reply to:

[color:"blue"]My comment is:
The situation you presented is impossible, because in it, God's foreknowledge is mistaken. I believe that while man has a free will and decides what he will do, God already flawlessly knows the decisions that he will make. I'll elaborate more on that below. No matter how many times you argue the point, my view does not allow for God to make mistakes in His foreknowledge. Trust me, I know what I believe a bit better than you do.


The situation I presented is NOT "impossible" but in fact, real and in consistent with all that you have written on this board. There is no escaping the error of your position, which has been soundly answered throughout the ages by myriad men, confessions of churches and the Scriptures.

Here is a synopsis of the semi-Pelagian/Arminian position to which, although you deny as being part of, you have set forth:

    [*]God's "foreknowledge" is defined as mere prescience, i.e., the awareness of raw facts.[*]God's "Omniscience" is defined as the ability of God to know all contingencies that might occur and the possible choices which men might make given any of those circumstances.[*]Before God even created, He is said to see what choices uncreated mankind will make and upon that knowledge of alleged facts of choice, He has predestinated certain men to salvation.[*]God's grace is only an influence which aids men in making decisions in regard to salvation but does not determine the actual result of those decisions[*]The incarnate Son of God died for the sole purpose of making salvation possible for all men, paying the debt owed for all men and yet this atonement did not actually secure the salvation of any.[*]Grace itself has no power to save but only aids those to whom it is given to be able to make use of that grace so that if they meet certain conditions, they will gain salvation. Many who have been given this grace and who have had all their sins atoned for will be condemned to eternal torment.[/LIST]There are so many errors in these statements which are contrary to the Scriptures that one must wonder if those who hold them have read the Bible at all! [Linked Image]

    First of all, simply denying that "God is mistaken" does not diminish the fact that your definition of foreknowledge demands one of two possibilities. Either, 1) God can be mistaken, because of necessity it is impossible, even for God, to know what a creature with the absolute ability to choose that which is contrary to his nature will choose given any and all circumstances. For, if man is able, as your view proposes, that man is able to choose that which is contrary to that which he desires, then there is no logical reason why he would choose a particular way given a set of circumstances. 2) Every possible set of circumstances must be made available to a man before it can be known which choice that man will make. This in turn demands that God must control all the choices which all men will make so as to produce the "all circumstances" from which another man would experience and thus make a "known" choice. etc., ad infinitum.

    If Christ paid the penalty and met all that is necessary for men to be saved, then of necessity all men must be saved. If not, upon what warrant would the Just One base the condemnation of any man? To not believe on Christ is a sin. To not endure in faith to the end is sin. To not live a perfectly sinless life is sin. But if by Christ's death ALL SINS have been atoned for, why is it that any man is condemned? The Scriptures state that God has been propitiated, i.e., His wrath has been appeased by the removal of that which offended Him; sin has been removed. God has been reconciled to man and man reconciled to God, i.e., the alienation which separated God and man has been removed. The ransom which was demanded by God and owed by man has been paid, i.e., the penalty of death for sin and the perfect righteousness necessary has been provided. The sacrifice that was necessary to fulfill the demands of the law was made and accepted by God in Christ's death completely. Therefore, if every requirement has been met, what more can be demanded to apprehend salvation? If you propose anything more, then salvation is not of God alone, but a combination of what Christ did and what man contributes = SYNERGISM, i.e., grace+works=salvation.

    You then prate about your superior understanding of "leadership" which in your estimation qualifies you to speak with more authority and/or verity concerning God's sovereignty. Let me humbly suggest, that there are not a few here who have held or currently do hold high positions of authority and know experientially what "authority" and responsibility are. The facts are that one who abdicates his/her position of authority and vests that authority to another no longer owns that authority. Not only is this logical, it is simply common sense. One may originally have some authority when the decision is made to give that authority to another. But once that authority is divested to another, that authority that was once owned is gone. Men may share authority, but then none is supreme in that authority. But the Scriptures state that God is the Supreme Ruler of the universe. It is HE Who has all authority and power; the actual and biblical definition of Omnipotence. He does not, nor can He share His Omnipotence with another. IF that were even feasible, then IF He should do so, then He would cease to be Deity.

    God's Foreknowledge is determined by His will; His council, His determination to His "pleasure" (Is 43:13; 44:7; 45:9-11; Ps 33:11; 135:6; Prov 19:21; Dan 4:35; Acts 4:27, 28; Rom 11:33-36; Eph 1:9-11; Heb 6:17; et al). God knows all things because He has determined all things according to His own will. The Scripture speaks of God foreknowing people not decisions of people. For example: Romans 8:29 (ASV) "For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:". It is sheer arrogance and eisogesis to try and make the text say: [color:blue]"For whom he foreknew [[color:red]as believing], he also foreordained . . .".

    Lastly, although not dealing with the myriad errors that could be addressed, there is this ridiculous notion that God sees the actions and decisions of men and then upon that basis "predestinates". Again, despite your denial, this is in truth POST-destination, because God's determination of the end is based upon something which He allegedly sees as having been accomplished by the creature beforehand. Truly, this mitigates against the entire understanding of Omniscience. God cannot have infinite knowledge in and of Himself if He must first see what a pre-created creation will do to gather knowledge beforehand. It's simply inane to even imagine such a thing. Further, where did these people originate which it is said that God has been audience to and gathered "knowledge about"? Surely they could not have been pre-existent souls, for the corporeal existence of beings has much to do in the influence and result of their making choices. Without doubt, you have constructed a labyrinth of illogical ideas from which no one can escape. For with each statement one is thrust deeper and deeper into contradiction and confusion. And God is not the Author of confusion.


In His Grace,


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#919 - Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:10 PM Why I am not an Arminian [Re: Pilgrim]  

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Dear Pilgrim,<br><br>IRT:<br>"Yes, I have read in several places where you adamantly deny that you are not an Arminian. But I must admit, that I cannot find where anything you believe is so different from Arminianism that would warrant your claim."<br><br>Concerning Christ paying the price for our sins. I believe that Christ paid for the sins of all humanity, but that the forgiveness that His blood has paid for is only obtained by those who will receive Christ Himself. For those who do not believe or fall from God's grace there remains no more sacrifice for their sins (Hebrews 10:26). Classical Arminianism maintains that Christ only 'suffered' for humanity, the phrase 'Christ paid for our sins' is foreign to Arminian theology.<br><br>To explain how I differ from modern Arminianism could take a book, as there are so many types. I don't know, maybe some teacher out there who claims to be an Arminian teaches the exact same thing I do - doesn't matter to me. I have held my beliefs in conditional salvation long before I had ever even heard the name of Calvin or Arminius, and would rather not have what I believe associated with a man, but with God's word. Arminius may have held many similar beliefs to what I do, but that does not make me a follower of Arminius' teachings, which is by definition what an Arminian is.<br><br>IRT:<br>"I must confess, that I do get a large chuckle every time I read that classic semi-Pelagian/Arminian statement,<br><br>'I believe that God is sovereign. BUT I also believe that God has given up His sovereignty and given men a 'free-will'.'"<br><br>I never said God gave up His sovereignty, I said He delegated the power to choose or reject Him to each of us. That is not to say that God cannot or will not override men's will if He so chooses; but in general, God let's us make our own choices. You never did answer me as to how Jerusalem could refuse God against His desire, and yet still be following His will in Luke 13:34.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#920 - Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:41 PM Re: Why I am not an Arminian  
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Concerning Christ paying the price for our sins. I believe that Christ paid for the sins of all humanity, but that the forgiveness that His blood has paid for is only obtained by those who will receive Christ Himself.

Again, a classic Arminian doctrine stated simply and precisely. You would do well to read John Owen's premier work, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ I am quite sure you will not do so unfortunately. And it would be a great loss if you don't. Dr. J.I. Packer's is probably just as well-known for writing the introduction to it in the modern reprinted version from The Banner of Truth, which you can also read online here: Introductory Essay to the "Death of Death"

Of course, Owen himself has probably put to rest the fallacy of this statement of yours better than anyone when he wrote:

[color:blue]For Whom Did Christ Die?


To which I may add this dilemma to our Universalists:

God imposed his wrath due unto, and Christ underwent the pains of hell for,

1. either all the sins of all men,
2. or all the sins of some men,
3. or some sins of all men.

If the last, some sins of all men, then have all men some sins to answer for, and so shall no man be saved; for if God entered into judgment with us, though it were with all mankind for one sin, no flesh should be justified in his sight: “If the LORD should mark iniquities, who should stand?” Ps. cxxx. 2. We might all go to cast all that we have “to the moles and to the bats, to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty,” Isa. ii. 20, 21.

If the Second, that is it which we affirm, that Christ in their stead and room Suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world.

If the first, why then, are not all freed from the punishment of all their sins?

You will say, “Because of their unbelief; they will not believe.”

But this unbelief, is it a sin, or not?

If not, why should they be punished for it? If it be, then Christ underwent the punishment due to it, or not.

If so, then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death?

If he did not, then did he not die for all their sins. Let them choose which part they will.


FYI, here is the actual record of what classic Arminianism believes in regard to the atonement and it's refutation from the "Canons of the Synod of Dort".

Arminian view of the Atonement and its Refutation

And lastly, being an "Arminian" does NOT mean you follow a man. It simply means that you are in agreement with what the man taught. I am unashamedly a "Calvinist", but I certainly don't follow after John Calvin; he's dead, buried and singing praises to his Sovereign LORD. But like millions of others, I have studied the Scriptures and the doctrines which I believe it teaches just so happen to be in-line with what is nicknamed, "Calvinism". I was firm in my beliefs before I ever heard of Arminianism or Calvinism or any other "ism", other than Judaism, which I read about in God's Word.


In His Grace,


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#921 - Tue Oct 01, 2002 12:42 PM I am of Christ [Re: Pilgrim]  

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Dear Pilgrim,<br><br>Owen's argument is easily answered. Final unbelief is not forgiven because believing is a condition that God requires for forgiveness. Unbelief can be forgiven if one believes afterward, for the condition has been fulfilled. Pretty simple.<br><br>The argument of limited atonement is easily settled by Romans 5:18<br>"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."<br><br>If you want to argue that 'all men' means only the elect, then did only the elect come into condemnation?<br><br>Regardless of what you may think I am, I am not an Arminian. Like you, I already believed what I do long before I heard of Calvin or Arminius; but I do not believe in claiming the belief systems of a man. I am not of Paul, Apollos, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley, Spurgeon or even my own pastor, though all of them held beliefs that I do. I am simply a Christian, I am of Christ.<br><br><br>In (and of) Christ,<br>Josh

#922 - Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:04 PM Re: I am of Christ  
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Josh T,<br><br>So what does the word "all" mean here?<br><br>I Cor 15:22<br>"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."<br><br>Ehud

#923 - Thu Oct 03, 2002 12:09 AM Re: I am of Christ [Re: Ehud]  
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Ehud<br><br>Great post, if Josh is correct then the conclusion would be that every single person on earth will be made alive.<br>But I doubt even Josh believes that.<br><br>Tom

#924 - Thu Oct 03, 2002 7:30 PM Re: I am of Christ  
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JoshT,

The more you respond to me and others in these threads, the more my heart is saddened. Doubtless, you are certainly not the only semi-Pelagian/Arminian (who adamantly denies being one) who I have encountered who has no sound biblical answers for their belief system. For historically, this has consistently been the case without exception. Simply stating that no one has given a sound rebuttal and proven your doctrines to be fallacious is rather childish and wholly ineffective. You have been shown myriad times the error(s) in your alleged reasoning. Be that as it may, I'll respond to your further questions and statements:
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Owen's argument is easily answered. Final unbelief is not forgiven because believing is a condition that God requires for forgiveness. Unbelief can be forgiven if one believes afterward, for the condition has been fulfilled. Pretty simple.

Sorry, your response is actually simplistic and far from answering Owen's famous remark. What Owen has clearly presented is that "unbelief", in and of itself, is a sin; a very heinous sin which must be atoned for. Meeting a "condition" has no sacrificial/propitiatory value. If you will maintain that it does have such, then once again you are shown to hold to a salvation apart from grace; aka synergism.

Owen's further caveat for those who hold to an "Indefinite Atonement" is seen in his closing remark:

If so, [color:blue][if He died for all the sins of all men] then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death?
In other words, if Christ atoned for all sins, then unbelief cannot be used to show why some men perish. The Scriptures no where speak of Jesus Christ's atoning work as being tentative, conditional, potential, etc. But rather, the inspired texts everywhere speak of the Lord Christ's atonement as complete. For example:
Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

1 Timothy 2:6 "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Hebrews 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]."

2 Corinthians 5:18 "And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;"

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world."

Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]The argument of limited atonement is easily settled by Romans 5:18, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

If you want to argue that 'all men' means only the elect, then did only the elect come into condemnation?

When verse 18 is read in its context, the truth can be known:

Romans 5:12-19 (ASV) "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. But not as the trespass, so also [is] the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many. And not as through one that sinned, [so] is the gift: for the judgment [came] of one unto condemnation, but the free gift [came] of many trespasses unto justification. For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, [even] Jesus Christ. So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous."
Throughout this passage of Scripture, Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, delineates between Adam and Christ. As Adam was the Federal Head of the entire fallen race of mankind, so Christ is the Federal Head of the renewed race of mankind. Where Adam brought all his progeny into condemnation, Christ brought His progeny into justification.

Thus, in verse 18 we have the offence of one (Adam), condemnation actually came upon all men of whom he was the representative. Likewise, by the righteousness of one (Christ) justification actually came to all men of whom He was the representative. What is inescapable is the fact that both the condemnation and the justification spoken of were actual not probable/potential. Thus if you are insistent upon ignoring the perspicuous element of corporate solidarity which belongs to Adam and the Lord Christ, then you are forced once again into Universalism, to which Dr. Owen addressed his book, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ. And just as an aside, apart from your own self-appointed status as one who "easily answered" Owen, there hasn't been one solitary individual in over 350 years who has done that. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rolleyes.gif" alt = "rolleyes[/img]

And lastly,
In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Regardless of what you may think I am, I am not an Arminian. Like you, I already believed what I do long before I heard of Calvin or Arminius; but I do not believe in claiming the belief systems of a man. . . .

Despite the fact that your words appear to have a semblance of piety, they are of course untenable. Although I would insist that I follow no man's theology, I have no qualms in referring to myself as a Calvinist. Why? Because the doctrines of Free Sovereign Grace did not originate with John Calvin, but are discerned from God's inerrant and infallible Word. I will and have, openly confess that it is unfortunate that John Calvin's name was appended to these great doctrines which have been the foundation of the Church for 2 millennia, despite the incessant opposition to them by some. But in spite of the fact that Calvin's name has now become inseparably part of this system of biblical doctrine, they are no less true and have been loved my millions who through them have come to know justification before God by faith in Christ Jesus.

One may claim to be of Christ but we also know from Scripture that many will do so even on the last day who were never loved by the Lord Christ. What is most important is where one's faith rests. Either it rests totally outside of oneself; even in one's decision to believe, or it rests wholly in the Lord Jesus Christ by grace ALONE. If you are truly holding fast to the idea that you met the "conditions" and therefore were given salvation, then you have no warrant to make that claim. For these alleged "conditions" were fully secured by Christ and are given efficaciously to those whom the Father gave Him to save.

"You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer — for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying, 'Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not -- that is the difference between me and them.' . . . Do I hear one Christian man saying, 'I sought Jesus before he sought me; I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me?' No, beloved; we are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts, and say —

'Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes o'erflow;
'Twas grace that kept me to this day,
And will not let me go.”


by Rev. Charles H. Spurgeon, on December 2, 1855
In His Grace,


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#925 - Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:58 AM Re: Foreknowledge of God  

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Dear LEJ,<br><br>The fact that God is Almighty does not preclude free will. God chose to give us free will, we did not give it to ourselves. Free will is not necessarily the 'equal ability to choose either of two contrary courses of action'; for I believe that God must draw a man before he can be saved, and man cannot just decide to become saved. The decision comes in when God offers him salvation.<br><br>If you are so objected to the term 'free will,' do you also object to it being used in Leviticus 22:18, Numbers 15:3, Deuteronomy 16:10, Ezra 3:5, and Psalm 119:108?<br><br>IRT:<br>"I urge you to stop 'kicking against the goads' and accept the Biblical fact that God is almighty. All that this argumentation appears to be doing, since you persist in unbelief, is to harden your heart. For the sake of your eternal salvation, bow down before the Almighty and give up your vain notions of 'free will.'"<br><br>If what you say is true then there is nothing that I can do to harden or soften my heart or do anything towards my salvation anyway, unless of course you know that what I am saying is correct. I fully accept that God is sovereign and can control anything He desires, I simply believe that He does not always choose to control every detail, which is the prerogative of any leader.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#926 - Fri Oct 11, 2002 9:27 AM Re: Foreknowledge of God [Re: Pilgrim]  

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Dear Pilgrim,

The situation you described is in fact impossible. I invite you to prove that God cannot know actions that He did not orchestrate, please show me a part of scripture stating something to this effect. My position has been answered, but never refuted (kind of like on this forum).

The statements you put forth do summarize my beliefs in a nutshell, but they are very Biblical and true.

I simply believe that God knows what will occur, whether He orchestrated it, or whether it came from the heart of one of His creations. That is not a difficult concept to grasp, the scenarios you present do nothing to disprove that.

IRT:
"If Christ paid the penalty and met all that is necessary for men to be saved, then of necessity all men must be saved. If not, upon what warrant would the Just One base the condemnation of any man?"

Like I said, redemption is conditional on obedience because God decreed that it be so (see Hebrews 5:9).

IRT:
"If you propose anything more, then salvation is not of God alone, but a combination of what Christ did and what man contributes = SYNERGISM, i.e., grace+works=salvation."

Nay. The work of salvation is the work of God alone, but receipt of that salvation is contingent upon our obedience to the truth. If what you say about Christ dying and paying for all sins unconditionally were true, it would not be a requirement that we repent, believe, and endure; all of which the Bible makes it clear that we must do to be saved.

IRT:
"You then prate about your superior understanding of 'leadership' which in your estimation qualifies you to speak with more authority and/or verity concerning God's sovereignty. Let me humbly suggest, that there are not a few here who have held or currently do hold high positions of authority and know experientially what 'authority' and responsibility are. The facts are that one who abdicates his/her position of authority and vests that authority to another no longer owns that authority."

Again, you show your ignorance on the subject, for one who delegates authority also retains the right to take it back, so in actuality, is still in charge. The master in Jesus' parables who delegated the care of his goods to his servants did not lose authority of those goods, in fact, when he returned he took them back and rewarded and punished as he saw fit. So God has given us free as a stewardship, which He may at times (as in the case of Cyrus) override, and which He will require accountability for. Your views on authority, whatever your station, are neither realistic nor Biblical.

IRT:
"God's Foreknowledge is determined by His will; His council, His determination to His "pleasure" (Is 43:13; 44:7; 45:9-11; Ps 33:11; 135:6; Prov 19:21; Dan 4:35; Acts 4:27, 28; Rom 11:33-36; Eph 1:9-11; Heb 6:17; et al)."

This is not stated in scripture. How is foreknowledge determined by will? That would be aftknowledge of what one had already planned to do.

IRT:
"God knows all things because He has determined all things according to His own will."

Then please tell me, why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem for resisting His (Luke 13:34)?

IRT:
"The Scripture speaks of God foreknowing people not decisions of people. For example: Romans 8:29 (ASV) 'For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:'."

To foreknow a man's life is to foreknow him.

"It is sheer arrogance and eisogesis to try and make the text say: 'For whom he foreknew [as believing], he also foreordained . . .'."

Why? That is what the whole of scripture seems to indicate.

IRT:
"Again, despite your denial, this is in truth POST-destination, because God's determination of the end is based upon something which He allegedly sees as having been accomplished by the creature beforehand."

I knew you would bring this up again, that is why I prepared (or should I say post-pared). Your argument is lacking in that the creature has not accomplished anything, but will receive Christ, a future action. So it is not wrong to say predestined. I foresee that you will not stop with this word game, so I guess I will continue to post-pare myself for it.

IRT:
"Truly, this mitigates against the entire understanding of Omniscience. God cannot have infinite knowledge in and of Himself if He must first see what a pre-created creation will do to gather knowledge beforehand."

Wrong. I believe that God foreknows it without having to see it, or without the creatures even being created yet. I don't know where you got the idea that God has to go look into it.


In Christ,
Josh

#927 - Fri Oct 11, 2002 9:30 AM Re: I am of Christ [Re: Ehud]  

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Dear Ehud,<br><br>It means that all who (or were) in Adam died, but all who are in Christ shall be made alive.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#928 - Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:20 PM Re: Foreknowledge of God  

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Dear Josh,<br><br>Sometimes when someone quotes your own words back to you, as you did in your reply, they don't sound the way they were originally intended. Allow me to say, with more gentleness I hope, that I do wish you the best, and part of that wish is that you come to a correct Biblical understanding of the doctrines in question. With that in mind:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]God chose to give us free will, we did not give it to ourselves.</font><hr></blockquote><p>No, He did not make that choice. To do so would make God, not-god, and He cannot deny himself.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]...a man cannot just decide to become saved.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Now you're talking! So ... Whence commeth free will?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]If you are so objected to the term "free will," do you also object to it being used in...</font><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, in all those scriptures, if you give it the humanistic meaning you are giving it. Did the "freewill offerings" fall outside of the decree of the Almighty? For, "In Him we live and move and have our being." Did they offer those freewill offerings such that they were autonomous of God, and Paul's statement about our being in God in the Acts 17 passage just quoted? Or, do we only sometimes 'live and move and have our being' in Him? And then only, of course, when we [color:red]allow</font color=red> Him to have control? Who's God here anyway?!!<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]... there's nothing I can do to harden or soften my heart ...</font><hr></blockquote><p>Yes you can. You can repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!<br><br>Josh, go back and prayerfully read Pilgrim's posts to you. Read mine. Read all that the others have sent you. Read them prayerfully Josh. Only God can remove the scales from your eyes, my friend. You must see the truth; it is there right before you. You must believe in order to understand (Augustine). I'm praying for you!<br><br>Sincerely yours in Christ,<br>LEJ<br><br>

#929 - Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:05 PM Re: Foreknowledge of God  
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In reply to:
The situation you described is in fact impossible. I invite you to prove that God cannot know actions that He did not orchestrate, please show me a part of scripture stating something to this effect. My position has been answered, but never refuted (kind of like on this forum).

Your failure to see that your view has, in fact, been refuted both by myself, others on this Forum and throughout history is no defense for it being heretical. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin[/img] Now, you want biblical proof that "God cannot know actions that He did not orchestrate. . ."

First the rational and logical proof. If God did not "orchestrate" all things from eternity (foreordination), then there are things which occur which He was not eternally aware of. If those things did not happen in eternity, then they must occur in time. Further, if God did not foreordain all things, then there are things which occur in and of themselves. Further yet, if there are things which occur without God's initiation, then it is impossible that He had eternal and prior knowledge of them. Therefore, the definition of "foreknowledge", even if for the sake of argument that we use the semi-Pelagian definition; i.e., "prescience, bare facts", is destroyed. Since things occurred apart from God's foreordination, then He cannot have known about them until they did occur (timeless or not). And thus it cannot be said that God knew about them beforehand, aka: [color:red]foreknowledge.

Secondly, your biblical proof. Actually only one text is needed to disprove your view:

Isaiah 41:22-23 "Let them bring forth, and declare unto us what shall happen: declare ye the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or show us things to come. Declare the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together."

Isaiah 44:7-8 "And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I established the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and that shall come to pass, let them declare. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have I not declared unto thee of old, and showed it? and ye are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any."

Isaiah 46:9-11 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure; calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

Psalms 135:6 "Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps; . . ."

Daniel 4:35 "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" (foreknowledge follows God's determinate counsel)

Romans 11:33-36 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him [be] the glory for ever. Amen."

Ephesians 1:9-11 ". . . making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, [I say,] in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;. . ."
All things come to pass according to the will of God and not according to some imaginary "pre-sight". And if God has willed all things, surely He is cognizant of that which He wills.

An architect "knows" what his project will be before it even goes on paper, for he preconceives it in his own mind beforehand, aka "foreknowledge". How much more is this true of the Almighty Eternal Creator? Lastly, and still yet, "foreknowledge" in the Scriptures is far more than prescience. It is in nearly every case joined with and inseparable with God's electing love. The Bible speaks of God "foreknowing" people not things.

Your view has once again been soundly refuted. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rolleyes.gif" alt="rolleyes[/img] A denial of the fact isn't going to make it go away! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin[/img]


In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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#930 - Mon Apr 07, 2003 12:14 PM Re: Foreknowledge of God  

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Dear LEJ,

IRT:
"No, He did not make that choice. To do so would make God, not-god, and He cannot deny himself."

How so? That does not follow.

I said,
"...a man cannot just decide to become saved."

you said,
"Now you're talking! So ... Whence commeth free will?"

Free will is the ability to accept or reject God's grace, man cannot dictate that God will save Him, but he must accept God's grace if God is to save him.

IRT:
"For, "In Him we live and move and have our being." Did they offer those freewill offerings such that they were autonomous of God, and Paul's statement about our being in God in the Acts 17 passage just quoted? Or, do we only sometimes 'live and move and have our being' in Him? And then only, of course, when we allow Him to have control? Who's God here anyway?!!"

All things come from God, and we could not exist were it not for Him. As far as the idea that everything is dictated by God; that is incorrect. Where did sin come from? Is God the author of sin as well? Do we live and move and sin in Him according to His decree? I don't think so. God gave us the power to make decisions independently of Him, (which all sin is); though we cannot exist apart from Him.


you said I wrote,
"... there's nothing I can do to harden or soften my heart ..."

then you said,
"Yes you can. You can repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!"

What was that you were saying about people quoting things back to you? You missed the context, I said according to your doctrine, there was nothing I could do to harden or soften my heart (which, according to Calvinism, is true - is it not?). But I do believe that God has given me the choice to believe in His Son, and I have been repentant and believing in Him for over twenty years now. And if I have repented and do believe, then why do you think that I am not saved?



In Christ,
Josh

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