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#931 - Mon Jul 08, 2002 7:30 PM gives grace to the humble  

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<center>[Linked Image] [color:red]This post and all replies was moved from</font color=red> Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine</center><br><br>Sure, don't you see? Good people are saved and bad people aren't! [Linked Image]

Last edited by Pilgrim; Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:00 PM.
#932 - Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:13 PM Re: gives grace to the humble  
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yeah, "good people" like this Saul of Tarsus. He was such a sweet heart when God saved him. <br><br>blessings,

#933 - Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:46 AM Not good, humble  

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Dear ReformedSBC,<br><br>"Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself? Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time? It is good that thou shouldest take hold of this; yea, also from this withdraw not thine hand: for he that feareth God shall come forth of them all." (Ecclesiastes 7:16-18)<br><br>God saves those who will hear Him, not those that are 'good.' <br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#934 - Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:13 AM Re: Not good, humble  

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God saves those who will hear Him, not those that are 'good.' <br><br>Nope. [Linked Image] God saves his own people, whom he died for; his sheep whom he enables to hear his voice. <br><br>Matt 1:21 "...you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."<br><br>John 10:26 "but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"<br>

#935 - Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:31 AM Re: Not good, humble  
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Reply ReformedSbc. <br><br>Dear brother JoshT,<br><br>Good see that you are back. I pray that you do well on your exams. But now back to the subject at hand.<br><br>I would like to add 2 more scriputes that speak on the issue of who are 'those [who] will hear him' and those who wont. <br><br><br>John 8:46 <br>Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "[color:red]He who is of God hears the words of God</font color=red>; for this reason you [color:red]do not hear them, because you are not of God</font color=red>." <br><br>John 1:12-13<br>But as many as [color:red]received Him</font color=red>, to them He gave the right to become (15) children of God, even (16) to those [color:red]who believe</font color=red> in His name, <br>13 (17) [color:red]WHO WERE BORN</font color=red>, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, [color:red]but OF GOD</font color=red>. <br><br><br>Is this not clear????? I think the grammar and the flow is pretty clear.<br><br>A. God regenerates the person (" born of God") [john 3]. Remember, natural man is "DEAD", spiritually. That is why they are regenerated; it gives spritual life, gives them a ' heart of flesh'. Thus:<br><br>B) they 'hear' & 'believe' and love the word of God and accept Christ as Lord and Savior. <br><br>JoshT that is why in John 3 it is stated that unless one is born again, He "[color:red]CANNOT SEE</font color=red>" the kingdom of God. Natural man is "BLIND". That my brother is the scriptures, NOT some man made tradition or philosphy.<br><br><br><br>I pray to God that HE would open your hear to listen to scripture. <br><br><br>brother,<br>Carlos<br><br>

Last edited by carlos; Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:51 AM.

"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
#936 - Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:47 AM Re: Not good, humble [Re: carlos]  
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...looks clear to me. [Linked Image]<br><br>From last eve's Bible study....I want to add something I've overlooked...in John 6.<br><br>John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. <br>45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. [color:red]Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. </font color=red><br><br>Notice how it's the Father/Spirit acting FIRST that precedes the "coming" unto Jesus. And none who are unregenerate come ...but only SHEEP come (and stay by the keeping of the Shepherd who goes back after even the One) with their one and only love. <br><br>In Him,

#937 - Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:49 PM Re: Not good, humble  
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Josh,<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>[color:"blue"]God saves those who will hear Him, not those that are 'good.'</font><p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Is it not a 'good' thing to hear God? Is it not a 'good' thing to humble yourself before God? <br><br>I hope that you agree that these are very good things. However, they are not the foundation of our salvation. For none of our good works are the basis for our salvation, however, Christ alone is the basis for our salvation.<br><br>Sincerely,<br>Ehud<br>

#938 - Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:45 AM Good things vs. good people [Re: Ehud]  

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Dear Ehud,<br><br>"Is it not a 'good' thing to hear God? Is it not a 'good' thing to humble yourself before God?"<br><br>You are confusing good things with good people. Men can do nothing good apart from God's grace, so it is ultimately only through God that we can hear God.<br><br>IRT:<br>"I hope that you agree that these are very good things. However, they are not the foundation of our salvation. For none of our good works are the basis for our salvation, however, Christ alone is the basis for our salvation."<br><br>You are confusing the basis with a requirement. You are also confusing hearing with works; if hearing is a work, then faith comes by works (Romans 10:17).<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#939 - Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:48 AM Re: Not good, humble  

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<br>Dear ReformedSBC,<br><br>I wrote:<br>"God saves those who will hear Him, not those that are 'good.'"<br><br>You wrote:<br>"Nope. God saves his own people, whom he died for; his sheep whom he enables to hear his voice."<br><br>Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), but not everyone hears Him. I have already proven under the argument 'Characteristics of Sheep' that the sheep spoken of in John 10 are those who already follow God. One primary reason is that Christ's sheep will not follow the voice of a stranger. If it is true that all of the elect are sheep before they accept Christ, then no one who ever joined a cult could be saved, because they have heard the voice of another, and therefore cannot be one of Christ's sheep. This is of course untrue, because one becomes a sheep when they hear Christ's voice and follow Him.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#940 - Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:53 AM Grace, not regeneration [Re: carlos]  

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Dear Carlos,<br><br>IRT:<br>"John 8:46 <br>Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God. <br><br>John 1:12-13<br>But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become (15) children of God, even (16) to those who believe in His name, <br>13 (17) WHO WERE BORN, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but OF GOD. <br><br><br>Is this not clear????? I think the grammar and the flow is pretty clear."<br><br><br>It is very clear. The phrase 'because you are not of God' indicates that God did not choose to give His grace to these individuals because He knew that they would harden their hearts against the truth and against His grace. The phrase 'WHO WERE BORN, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but OF GOD' makes it clear that it is not man who has sought God, but God who has sought man and chosen certain of them to be saved (based on His foreknowledge). No problems from either passage.<br><br>IRT:<br>"A. God regenerates the person (" born of God") [john 3]. Remember, natural man is 'DEAD', spiritually. That is why they are regenerated; it gives spritual life, gives them a ' heart of flesh'. Thus:<br><br>B) they 'hear' & 'believe' and love the word of God and accept Christ as Lord and Savior."<br><br>Men are not born of God or regenerated before they are saved-- there is no Biblical indication of this. God sheds His grace upon them, enabling them to humble themselves, hear Him, repent, and believe the truth. The 'heart of flesh' is given by God to those who are born again. Note in Ezekiel 11, that God will give Israel this after they show the fruits of repentance, not before.<br><br>IRT:<br>"JoshT that is why in John 3 it is stated that unless one is born again, He "CANNOT SEE" the kingdom of God. Natural man is 'BLIND'."<br><br>The kingdom of God in John 3 refers to the eternal kingdom. In other words, one cannot see God's eternal kingdom unless he is saved. Natural man is blind, until God gives him grace enabling him to see.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#941 - Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:02 AM Re: Not good, humble [Re: lazarus]  

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<br>Dear Lazarus,<br><br>IRT:<br>"Notice how it's the Father/Spirit acting FIRST that precedes the 'coming' unto Jesus."<br><br>I agree with that.<br><br>IRT:<br>"And none who are unregenerate come ...but only SHEEP come (and stay by the keeping of the Shepherd who goes back after even the One) with their one and only love."<br><br>I don't see how you can draw that from,<br><br> "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."<br><br>since it says nothing about the unregenerate or non-sheep. It does say that those who have heard will come to Him, which is exactly what I have been saying. While it does say that the good Shepherd goes after His sheep, there is no indication that a wayward sheep will invariably return. To read that would be imposing other meaning on the text. <br>Consider what the scripture says about perseverance, <br><br>"That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." (2 Timothy 1:14)<br><br>and<br><br>"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:29-21)<br><br>So while it is only by God's grace and Spirit that we can endure, we do have a daily decision to make as well: to yield to God's grace and follow the Spirit.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh<br>

#942 - Sat Aug 24, 2002 9:05 AM Re: Good things vs. good people  
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JoshT,<br><br>Okay, then let me restate what I said.<br><br>Why is it that any of us who are sinners, who are enemies of God, who hate God, despise the things of God, who love our sins and are desperately wicked, who hate to hear things such as repentance and who are all together worthless, <br>why is it that any of us would ever become genuinely interrested in salvation. <br><br>Why does one become interested and the other remains hardened? What is the difference in you than a lost person? <br><br>Ehud<br><br>

#943 - Tue Aug 27, 2002 12:50 PM Grace [Re: Ehud]  

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Dear Ehud,<br><br>IRT:<br>"Why is it that any of us who are sinners, who are enemies of God, who hate God, despise the things of God, who love our sins and are desperately wicked, who hate to hear things such as repentance and who are all together worthless, <br>why is it that any of us would ever become genuinely interrested in salvation."<br><br>Grace. Without grace, no one could seek God, become humble before Him, or repent. I think we can agree on that much. The difference is that I think God's grace can be resisted by men who see the truth, but then want to harden their hearts against it.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh

#944 - Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:13 PM Re: Grace  
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]The difference is that I think God's grace can be resisted by men who see the truth, but then want to harden their hearts against it.

[color:purple]1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?"

There appears to be a clear contradiction between what you believe/stated and what the inspired Apostle has written. If, as you say, all men have received an "equal measure of enabling 'grace'" then that which makes them to differ is their will and or willingness to cooperate with that grace! Again, your view denigrates grace and relegates it to a mere "influence" which does not actually save in and of itself. Man's will is the actual and proximate cause of salvation. Your position is indefensible.

Arminius and his followers tried to get the true church to return to Rome and it's semi-Pelagianism back in 1618 with this very same heresy. And after 18 months of deliberation a unanimous decision was rendered against them. See here: The Canons of Dordt It just goes to show that Solomon spoke the truth: "There is nothing new under the sun!"


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#945 - Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:27 PM Re: Grace  

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Josh,<br><br>I can't add a whole lot to what has been said, but would you go on record as saying that you cause yourself to differ from another?<br><br>In His Grace,<br><br>Ron

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