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#43421
Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:46 PM
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Calvinists, As you can already tell, I'm not a Calvinist. However, two people very dear to me have recently converted (sisters). I am trying to understand your beliefs. They are odd to me. That's putting it nicely. But what's even more odd, given all the austerity and severity and so on with Calvinism, my sisters are now enthralled by John Piper, and a book he wrote called _Christian Hedonism_. I can remember the first time I heard the title. I actually winced. Christian.....hedonism. There couldn't be a more glaring oxymoron. I suppose the next popular book will deal with how we can harness the power of the devil to most glorify God: Christian Satanism. These icons are great, by the way. So if some of you might indulge me: what is it that attracts Calvinists to Christian Hedonism? Calvinism is all about being strict and Puritan - whence the Pleasure?
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1. You can find out much about what Calvinism really is and teaches by doing a little reading here: Calvinism and the Reformed Faith. 2. There are not a few of us here who are repulsed at the phrase "Christian Hedonism". There are some salient discussions here on the board regarding Piper and his views. Just do a search for "Piper" and/or "hedonism" and you will find them. 3. Not everyone who says they are a Calvinist is a Calvinist... you know this to be true, surely!
simul iustus et peccator
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Hi Mike, I am glad that you are worried about what your sisters are reading!!! Well, why not get them the right stuff to read and one extra for yourself? I can highly recommend this little book of John Calvin!! Sorry, but it has to be Calvin. Regards Johan
Last edited by Johan; Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:22 AM.
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Calvinists, Calvinism is all about being strict and Puritan - whence the Pleasure? Hey Mike, what's your background, where are you coming from? Christian? What denomination? Athiest? Agnostic? What type of pleasue are you seeking?
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine
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I'm not sure how it relates to the question, but I'm a Christian, I attend an Anglican Church in America that recently split from its Episcopal parish over the issue of homosexuality. I'm not seeking pleasure. At least I hope my life can't be reduced to that. I'm not an animal. Pleasure-seeking seems a bit un-Christian to me, because it also included pain-avoidance, and since we're called to carry to cross, well, it would be hard to call that pain-avoidance. What interests me as a side-note: Piper's book came out in 1986-ish. It has just now started to catch on. Any thoughts on why? Something to do with seminarians finally getting teaching positions, and spreading the good word? Mike
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I was more focusing on your adversion to Calvinism, I don't know anything about the book you're referring to, I'm not a fan of Piper...I prefer the classics! Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Bunyan and the like....
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine
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I'm not sure what you're asking. You want to know about my adversion to Calvinism? Well, I don't like Calvinism because it twists Scripture via duplicitous concepts (two loves, two wills, two worlds, etc.) and makes God the bad guy. Does this answer your question?
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What interests me as a side-note: Piper's book came out in 1986-ish. It has just now started to catch on. Any thoughts on why? Something to do with seminarians finally getting teaching positions, and spreading the good word? It may have something to do with the Article of the Month.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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I'm not sure what you're asking. You want to know about my adversion to Calvinism? Well, I don't like Calvinism because it twists Scripture via duplicitous concepts (two loves, two wills, two worlds, etc.) and makes God the bad guy. Does this answer your question? What that tells us that you haven't a clue what historic Calvinism teaches. I know nothing of "two loves", "two wills", "two worlds", "etc.", nor have I read such nonsense in any Calvinist writings. Can you provide some quotes with author's names who claim to be Calvnists who have made such ridiculous statements?
simul iustus et peccator
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Hi Mike, A recent article in Christianity Today in which John Calvin is the cover story gives a good introduction on the great (often misunderstood) Reformer... 'Preforeordestination'
Mark Twain has Huckleberry Finn refer to a perplexing Calvinist sermon he once heard on "preforeordestination." In agreement with Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Luther before him, Calvin did teach that God was sovereign in salvation no less than in creation, and that divine election was entirely gratuitous—ante praevisa merita, as the scholastic tag went, not based on God's foreknowledge of human achievement. Calvin held this view not because he was a mean man or a dour despot, but because he believed to have found it clearly taught in Holy Scripture. For Calvin, however, the doctrine of predestination was not an a priori metaphysical axiom from which everything else was derived. Rather, it had a Christological focus (with Christ as the mirror of election) and a pastoral import.
In discussing predestination, Calvin followed the method of Paul in his Epistle to the Romans. One does not begin with the inscrutable decrees of God, but rather with God's general revelation in creation and the conscience (Rom. 1). This leads to a discussion of human sinfulness (chapters 2-3), God's atoning work in Christ and justification by faith (chapters 4-7), followed by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and the declaration of God's unfathomable love (chapter 8). Only then is it fitting to consider the theme of God's electing grace in the history of Israel and in our own lives (chapters 9-11). Only then, as we look back on our rescue from sin, can we exclaim with the non-Calvinist Charles Wesley, "Amazing love, how can it be, that thou my God shouldst die for me!"
The elect are not the elite. There is no place in Calvin's thought for the kind of spiritual snobbery reflected in the old camp-meeting ditty, "We are the Lord's elected few, / let all the rest be damned./ There's room enough in hell for you, / we don't want heaven crammed!" The true Calvinist preaches the gospel promiscuously to all persons everywhere, aware that God alone infallibly knows all those who belong to him. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/september/14.27.html
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine
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Well, take John 3:16 for example.
How do you translate "world"?
How do you translate "whosoever"?
How do you translate "loved"?
Mike
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Thanks, good article.
But isn't indiscriminate preaching rather wasteful? Certainly, we are commanded to spread the word. Perhaps it's because it's assumed that "whosoever" hears and believes the message and confesses Christ as Lord will be saved. That's my theory.
More importantly, isn't it a bit dishonest to preach to a group of people and let them believe any one of them might be one of the "elect"? To be completely honest, shouldn't they start with a disclaimer: "Listen folks, some of you are elected, some are reprobate. I have no way of knowing. You have no way of knowing. Only God knows. So what I'm about to tell you will be irrelevant for the reprobate, and superflous for the elect."
Mike
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But isn't indiscriminate preaching rather wasteful? Certainly, we are commanded to spread the word. Perhaps it's because it's assumed that "whosoever" hears and believes the message and confesses Christ as Lord will be saved. That's my theory.
More importantly, isn't it a bit dishonest to preach to a group of people and let them believe any one of them might be one of the "elect"? To be completely honest, shouldn't they start with a disclaimer: "Listen folks, some of you are elected, some are reprobate. I have no way of knowing. You have no way of knowing. Only God knows. So what I'm about to tell you will be irrelevant for the reprobate, and superflous for the elect." PLEASE ( Hedonism) The MEANS by which God calls His elect is through the promiscuous preaching of the Gospel which outwardly calls ALL MEN to repent of their sins and believe upon Christ unto the remission of sins. Who those elect are is of no import in regard to this outward call in the Gospel.(cf. Matt 28:19,20; Acts 17:30; Rom 1:16; 10:8-17, et al) Lorraine Boettner does a fine job of answering your objection(s) here: THAT IT PRECLUDES A SINCERE OFFER OF THE GOSPEL TO THE NON-ELECT.
simul iustus et peccator
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Pilgrim,
I really don't have time to read all these links - if I did, I wouldn't be on this forum. It's here I'd like to have some discussions about various topics. But thank you for the links, I will try to keep them in mind.
Does the word "world" in Jn 3:16 mean ALL MEN?
"the promiscuous preaching of the Gospel which outwardly calls ALL MEN to repent of their sins and believe upon Christ"
You seem to think so in this statement?
When you have to say what it doesn't mean - all men without exception - it's really a dodge. Tell me what it means to you.
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." I Tim 2:4
"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." I Tim 2:6
I think it's saying that God loves all men.
I have a feeling you might agree....as long we we define love correctly, right? Isn't there a special kind of love that God has for his elect?
By the way, is the present active participle of pisteuo used elsewhere to mean "elect"? I would think the Greek word "eklektos" might be more clear, which I think is used for every instance of the word in the NT.
So let's add another concept to the duplicitous list: believing ones also means elect, and elect means elect.
That works great, if you assume those who believe are the same as the elect!
Mike
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