The Highway

Love the Sinner Dept.

Posted By: Hitch

Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:10 AM

Does God love those condemned to hell?
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:04 AM

Originally Posted by Hitch
Does God love those condemned to hell?

Unless the word "hate", which is used in several passages referring to how God looks upon the reprobate, actually means "love", then it doesn't seem likely that God loves them.

What do you think?
Posted By: chestnutmare

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:08 AM

No! I hate them with a perfect hatred. (Ps. 139:22)

Does God love the Sinner and hate Only His Sin? by John Gerstner

and

Scripture nowhere says that God loves the sinner but hates his sin; God is angry with the sinner continually (Ps. 5:5; 7:11; 10:3).
A Gospel Summary
Posted By: Hitch

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:47 AM

I asked you first.


The 'Love the sinner hate the sin' bit comes up every so often and by and large it is the majority position. Especially as it relates to the sodomites.

Currently in far too many Chrisitan circles the PC sect is the majority. And all needs be done is refuse the reprobates chosen terms, 'gay' and you're marked as 'hateful ' .

Posted By: Hitch

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:53 AM

Perf!

Is Gerstner's paper copyable ?

Links are Ok but far more folks will read a post and not follow a link.
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Hitch
Is Gerstner's paper copyable ?

Links are Ok but far more folks will read a post and not follow a link.

yep Go for it! grin
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Hitch
I asked you first.

Yes, and I did respond with my view, albeit in a round about way. Consider also,

Psalms 5:4-6 (ASV) "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: Evil shall not sojourn with thee. The arrogant shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou wilt destroy them that speak lies: Jehovah abhorreth the blood-thirsty and deceitful man."

Psalms 7:11 (KJV) "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry (Heb: properly, to foam at the mouth, i.e. to be enraged:--abhor, abominable, (be) angry, defy, (have) indignation) [with the wicked] every day."

Psalms 11:4-6 (ASV) "Jehovah is in his holy temple; Jehovah, his throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. Jehovah trieth the righteous; But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind shall be the portion of their cup."

Malachi 1:2-4 (ASV) "I have loved you, saith Jehovah. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother, saith Jehovah: yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and [gave] his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are beaten down, but we will return and build the waste places; thus saith Jehovah of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and men shall call them The border of wickedness, and The people against whom Jehovah hath indignation for ever."

Proverbs 6:16-19 (KJV) "These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew [loved] you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Romans 9:6-13 (ASV) "But [it is] not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac-- for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Methinks that the above passages, intentionally quoted in context make it indisputably clear that God does not love everyone. In fact, it isn't that God loves the wicked less but rather there He hates the wicked and promises to destroy them by casting them into Hell where they will endure eternal punishment and torment.

Originally Posted by Hitch
The 'Love the sinner hate the sin' bit comes up every so often and by and large it is the majority position. Especially as it relates to the sodomites.

Currently in far too many Christan circles the PC sect is the majority. And all needs be done is refuse the reprobates chosen terms, 'gay' and you're marked as 'hateful'.

The idea that God loves all isn't anything new. But it is being embraced by more and more recently to be sure, even among so-called Reformed believers in most denominations. What I find most amusing actually, is that there is little warrant to be found in Scripture to suggest that God loves all, more or less, is a plausible teaching. Eisogesis, if even that is employed, is all that one has. Mainly, it is the simple wishes of a mind that is either ignorant of the biblical truth or refuses to acknowledge it that asserts that God loves the sinner but hates the sin. IF that were the case, then wouldn't it be true that at the judgment, God would cast all SIN into hell and save all the SINNERS because He allegedly loves them? The over-whelming use of the word "love" in the context of God's disposition toward man is salvific, redemptive rather than some expression of emotion. Whom God loves... He saves and has decreed to do so from all eternity. (cf. Eph 1:4ff)

Okay... does that clear up any possible doubt where I stand on the matter? evilgrin
Posted By: Robin

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:46 AM

Now that begs the question, "if He hates them, why did He create them?"

The Westminster Confession's phrase "to the praise of His glorious justice" comes to mind.
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Robin
Now that begs the question, "if He hates them, why did He create them?"

The Westminster Confession's phrase "to the praise of His glorious justice" comes to mind.

AMEN! The hatred and damnation of the wicked displays God's ineffable holiness and justice.

Romans 9:13-29 (ASV) "Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, [even] us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved. And it shall be, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God. And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved: for the Lord will execute [his] word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short. And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah."
Posted By: Robin

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:08 PM

God's willingness to endure wickedness for millennia in order to make His righteousness and justice known is also evidence of His infinite mercy ! His hatred of of the wicked gives testimony to His holiness. His purpose is to make Himself known to His creation. Absolutely awesome!
Posted By: chestnutmare

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:19 PM

Hos 9:15 "All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters."
Posted By: Hitch

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:47 PM


Todays response, what do you think of the last line?


Quote
So we see Hitch that God wants the wicked to turn away from their wickedness. That is God's desire. Thus, in summary:
1 Timothy 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why else do you think scripture would say,
Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Hell will be full of people that God loves...
Posted By: chestnutmare

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:25 PM

Not much! Not one of God's elect, His sons who He loved enough to die for, will be consigned to hell. That would put to naught Christ's propitiation for the sins of the elect. Only those who God hates will be in hell. I do believe that there were several verses in the posts above to help you defend this position.
Posted By: Hitch

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by chestnutmare
Not much! Not one of God's elect, His sons who He loved enough to die for, will be consigned to hell. That would put to naught Christ's propitiation for the sins of the elect. Only those who God hates will be in hell. I do believe that there were several verses in the posts above to help you defend this position.
LOL Yup more than enough.

Its almost comical, the way even believers prefer a God of their choosing. I've since been accused of Hyper-Calvinsim and leaning toward Serpent Seed theology.
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:21 PM

Well, let's see what happens when God sets His love upon someone according to Scripture and not someone's sentimentality based upon a fictitious "god".

Quote

Romans 8:28-39 (ASV) "28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, [even] to them that are called according to [his] purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew [fore-loved], he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; 34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Seems clear enough to me that NOT ONE that is loved of God will perish because the only begotten Son was sent to die in their behalf to pay the penalty due them, that His perfect righteousness is imputed to their account thereby meeting the full demands of the law of God, that Christ forever makes intercession for them, that the Holy Spirit is bequested to them all and Who dwells within them... all because the sovereign, omnipotent, covenant-keeping God is FOR them. No, no, a thousand times no... NEVER will anyone whom God has set His infinite love will be cast into the fires of hell. God's love triumphs over all.
Posted By: sojourner

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:49 PM

If God willed that all be saved, then all would be.God does not have two contrary wills therefore "all men" cannot be meant every individual of mankind since it clearly is not His will that all be saved.Read all highlighted verses listed by others.There are those ordained to wrath.Read this verse as it should be read,intending it to mean all sorts of men,kings and peasants,etc..
Posted By: Hitch

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:10 PM

Another response from the same source,worth a chuckle.

Quote
Perhaps the proper questions should be asked.

1. "Will God forgive the sinner?"
2. "Will God forgive the wicked"
3. "Does God ever change his mind"
4. "Is God able to repent"


If the answer is yes, does God do these things out of hatred for the sinner, or out of love for the sinner?

I doubt anyone will seriously address these questions.


My response ;

LOL Exactly which sins or mistakes do you think God should repent of ?
Posted By: li0scc0

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:49 PM

Depends if one is a 4 or 5 point Calvinist (some would say there is no such thing as a 4 point Calvinist, an argument for another thread!).

4 pointers would say God loved all, died for all (i.e. no limited atonement). And thus those who go to hell would be loved.
5 pointers would say God loved and died for only the elect (limited atonement). Thus those who go to hell are not loved.

A bit black and white/simplistic, but hopefully reasonably clear.
Posted By: Dennis

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Hitch
Does God love those condemned to hell?
No.

I just wanted to add my answer; it looks like the question has been treated by others already.


smile
Posted By: Dennis

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Pilgrim

The hatred and damnation of the wicked displays God's ineffable holiness and justice.

Amen to that!
Posted By: Pilgrim

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:45 PM

I agree with your answer that God does not love the reprobate. Of course, this flies in the face of the popular notion that God loves everyone without discrimination; aka: the universal love of God. At the other extreme, there are those who go too far and posit that God shows no benevolence to the wicked whatsoever, aka: hyper-Calvinism.

John Gerstner has an excellent article dealing with the love of God in regard to sinners which one an read here: Does God Love the Sinner and Hate Only His Sin?
Posted By: Dennis

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Pilgrim
At the other extreme, there are those who go too far and posit that God shows no benevolence to the wicked whatsoever, aka: hyper-Calvinism.
I agree. smile
Posted By: Dennis

Re: Love the Sinner Dept. - Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By: li0scc0
Depends if one is a 4 or 5 point Calvinist (some would say there is no such thing as a 4 point Calvinist, an argument for another thread!).

4 pointers would say God loved all, died for all (i.e. no limited atonement). And thus those who go to hell would be loved.
5 pointers would say God loved and died for only the elect (limited atonement). Thus those who go to hell are not loved.

A bit black and white/simplistic, but hopefully reasonably clear.
I don't believe there is such a thing as a 4 point Calvinist.
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