In my frustrations with catholics and free-will protestants, I want to propose a scenario (and this is of course relating to election),

A child is raised by Muslim extremists. He is trained and indoctrinated to become a suicide bomber to the glory of Allah. (which is a scenario that is unfortunately all too common in this day & Age).

At 18 he blows himself up in the name of Allah. Did this individual ever have the grace necessary to exercise his own free-will to become a child of God?

Being new to reformed doctrine I still am struggling to be totally convinced, although it seems to be pretty plain in scripture to me. Is it that we just accept it and use faith to know that although it seems unfair we know that God is good and merciful and loving therefore there are some keys to this issue He has chosen not to reveal to us, since it is not is job to justify Himself to us humans? Sorry for the run on...

Hi Rachel, why is it unfair?

ok- I have read enough on here to know that we all deserve hell and that if one is predestined it is from God's mercy to us, yet my carnal but never ending brain wants to know "if God knows the all the outcomes then why create man since most of them would be born helpless to stop themselves from hurling into hell?

Paul says in Romans 9,


http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/arbitrary.html

Rachel,

why aren't you offended that God does not override our free-will and spare us eternal torment for those who choose Hell.

Why does 'free-will' trump everything else? Like, it's ok to send John Doe to hell, but whatever you do don't take away his choice to go to hell....that is offensive!

Do you know anyone who proclaims, 'it is my goal to go to hell when I die.'? Who are these Einsteins who are making this choice.

I'm not trying to sound rude, I can tell you are trying to understand how these things can be so. I'm just demonstrating the obsurdity of free-will preaching, thanks!

The salvation of the righteous and condemnation of the reprobate is happening according to God's eternal decree and to His Glory and the good of the elect for Jesus' sake.

AC

I guess I didn't make myself clear. How can I have a free-will in the matter if I have a reprobate nature? I will naturally choose darkness over light right? I am not saying I believe in free-will it seems clear that is not what goes on in the salvation process. Of course no one would choose hell. My original question is this-"are there not some things that we cannot understand down here that we just have to chalk up to faith that God is all loving and all merciful. What seems unfathomable to my finite mind is fully justified in Gods infinite sight. If you are saying you totally understand it all, then you are so far ahead of me I doubt I could catch up. Not being sarcastic here. I am still too new to all of this to be a pro.

I agree with you. But God's love and mercy are only 2 of his attributes.

Many in the mainstream Christian community highlight these 2 attributes abouve all else. I think of Billy Graham, who simply proclaims 'God Loves You!' He has taken it to such an extreme that he believes people from other religions, as long as the are loyal to their own religion, will be saved, regardless of a rejection of Jesus Christ.

RC Sproul has a good book called the 'Holiness of God.' I think AW Pink and others also wrote books on God's attributes.

Peace to you Rachel!

AC

Personally,

I hate sin in myself, I hate the sin I see in the world around me. We live in a society that hates God. Even many so-called christains want to accept God on their terms. Like he is some grandfathely type. People don't want God on His terms, they want the God they have concieved in their minds and hearts. Once we realize that we live in a fallen world and that we are worthy of death, we will cling to the hope that is Jesus Christ. That's what it means to be saved. If salvation was as simple as an alter call we wouldn't really need a Savior to begin with. We must stop saying, 'well how could a loving God....." and realize that we are part of the fallen condition that are at enmity with a Holy & Just God. That He is the potter and we are but the clay. Only then will we realize that God is Love & Mercy to the wretched & undeserving sinner who repents and believes.....

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

T'was Grace that taught...
my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear...
the hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares...
we have already come.
T'was Grace that brought us safe thus far...
and Grace will lead us home.

The Lord has promised good to me...
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be...
as long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
and mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
a life of joy and peace.

You are right. Great points. I will try to get the book by R.C.. I love this site as it helps to "deprogram" me from the mainstream casual christian religion.
I too hate my sin and my quickness to think of me, me, me. How awesome will it be in heaven to never have inner warfare going on, and to be free of "self"?
Thank you AC for your time and patience with a new but very hungry reformed christian

By ""self", I meant the self down here that is so critical of others, accepting of itself, looking out too many times for #1, and most of all not loving my God as He so richly deserves.

Rachel,

Thanks for all the good questions you have opened up in this thread. I'll try and answer some of them as they appear in each of your replies instead of throwing them all together in one reply. I think it would be easier for you to follow along.

In your reply here you first introduce the doctrine of "Foreknowledge" but which is defined by non-Reformed individuals. That view defines foreknowledge as:

1) Prescience: knowing raw facts about someone or something.
2) Knowledge which is obtained through perception.
3) A commensurate action on the part of God based upon what is perceived.

The biblical response in brief and which contradicts this view is:

1) Foreknowledge can be knowledge of facts but it is also used as a synonym for "love", e.g., "For whom he did foreknow [forelove], he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,..." (Rom 8:29).
2) IF God obtains knowledge of the acts of individuals through perceiving their choices, then de facto, Omniscience is abrogated, because this implies that God did not know what a person would do until after that choice was made. But the biblical doctrine teaches that God's foreknowledge is based not upon what might possibly happen (more on this in a second), but upon what will infallibly happen. And why will it infallibly come to pass because God ordains it. Put another way, God knows all things because He has determined [foreordained] all things. It makes no difference whether one asserts that God's perception of events is 'outside of time'. For the fact and insurmountable hurdle is that until an individual makes a choice, not even God can know what that choice and the consequences of it will be.
3) IF God acts subsequent to an individual's decision(s), then man becomes the sovereign and not God. Thus, Omnipotence is also eradicated. As soon as man is given the power of this fictitious idea of 'free-will', predestination is impossible. Anything God determines after the fact is in actuality "Post-destination", which is nowhere found in Scripture.

The second element you introduced in your reply is the question concerning the justice of God. It seems you are wanting to know since God knows all the outcomes why would God create helpless men who will end up in hell.

1) Again, God knows the 'outcome' of all things because He has determined all things (Isa 43:13; 44:7; 46:9,10; Ps 33:11; 135:6; Prov 19:21; 21:30; Dan 4:35).
2) Yes, men are 'helpless' for they possess a corruption of nature which determines all their thoughts, words and deeds. They are spiritually DEAD and thus by nature hate God and all that is good. This is everyone's just punishment which they received when the father of the human race disobeyed God. Adam was the Federal Head of the human race and thus whatever he did, we did (Rom 5:12-18). Additionally, not only does every man woman and child who is born into this world possess that inherited corruption of nature, they also have imputed to them the consequential guilt of Adam's sin. All men are thus guilty before God and worthy of damnation. Paul mentions both of these aspects of Original Sin in the second chapter of Ephesians:

3) Lastly, why would God decree that the vast majority of the human race be born, live their entire lives in sinful rebellion against their Maker and finally be cast into eternal torment? A few simple answers come to mind: 1) To display His ineffable holiness and justice, and 2) to exemplify His infinite love, mercy and grace through the sending of the Son to atone for those whom He determined to receive salvation in Him, and 3) for His own glory.

Free-will is a fiction fabricated by sinful men whose sole desire is to become autonomous (cf. Gen 3:4.5).

Oh, but they do choose hell. Okay, so they do not consciously say to themselves, methinks living in eternal torment sounds like a better alternative than living in eternal bliss with God. But in essence, this is exactly what they do when they choose to live a life of sin and rebellion before God. When a person chooses to rob a bank, he/she doesn't say to himself, "Hmmm, I think being locked up in prison for 20 years is what I would really like to do." Of course not... BUT this is due partly because the person thinks that they can get away with the crime, the rewards of which are foremost in their mind. Likewise, the unregenerate choose to do what they love most; sin because the alternative of repenting all sin, confessing before their Maker that they are guilty as charged and are worthy of judgment. They do not believe that what they think, say and do will be used against them in the heavenly court because in reality, they deny the existence of God, i.e., the one true God of Scripture. They may believe in some 'god' of their own imagination, e.g., some 'god' who is all love and who will weigh all things and their self-perceived 'good deeds' will outweigh any bad they have done.

Think nothing of it, I consider myself blessed to share in these types of exchanges and desire that my actions may more heartily reflect my words!

To bring it back to scriptures please consider these words (from the Book of John) spoken by the Blessed Savior (and do realize that Jesus will welcome with open arms any and all who are overcome/pricked with the guilt of their sin unto repentance) -

'All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.'

'And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.'

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.'

'I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.'

'I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.'

you know when I first was introduced to this doctrine( on the radio actually) I was blown away with wonder and the thought could this be? You see my fear was always- ME! If I chose God couldn't I "unchoose " God? Such a terrifying thought! It haunted my every day. Now if HE chose me then I can rejoice in a way no free-will believing person ever can. Not that I want to run out and sin, quite the contrary. If He chose me I want more than ever to love and please Him every minute. This is all so extraordinary and revolutionary to me. I know I have seen many scriptures to support this view but listening for years to preaching denying this doctrine made me doubtany hopes of such a truth. If this is true and I am believing more and more it is- why would anyone fight such a wonderful thing. Why wouldn't every christian every where want to learn and believe something so wonderous?

'Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ'

Dear Rachel:

The Bible says God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind. The answer to your fear is not a false doctrine to confort yourself with, but truth mixed with FAITH. The idea that you now can't "unchoose" God is so obviously false that you know it within yourself. That is the root of your fear--you know you have a will and you know you can choose other that what you do.

This is why we are taught to submit to God and resist the devil. What is this submitting if you can't choose? James told Christians to submit to God. Obviously, they could do otherwise. So can you.

The beauty of this and what glorifies the Lord is when believers prefer Him to the Devil or temptation. When the demons see people, surrounded by temptation, prefer and cling to the Lord instead, this brings God great glory! God surely is preferrable to this world and is glorified when men like Moses choose God over Pharoah and his enticements.

Free-will is a Bible term and concept. Whosever will is invited to come to Christ by the Holy Spirit. You are commanded to abide in Christ, and He will abide in you. His yoke is EASY, and His burden LIGHT. Do you believe this? You can abide in Christ because you were created to walk with your God. It is natural.

Elizabeth Eliot revealed that the tribeman that murdered her husband and the others admitted that deep down, they knew what they did was wrong, and they further told that they knew stealing was wrong, and that what they did to each other during tribal wars was wrong. Now these people were about as backward, degenerate and God-forsaken as one could imagine, and yet THEY KNEW inside all about right and wrong! Suicide bombers sin against their own conscience and the light within them that they have. They are without excuse.

All this person had to do is what many have done who were in false religion but honestly wanted truth--cry out to God, and SOMEHOW, God gets truth to them as only He can. He does it all the time all over the world. We don't know the half ot it, but will one glorious day!

Free-will is a fiction fabricated by sinful men whose sole desire is to become autonomous

Look at the self-contradictory absurdity of such ideas! Sinful men WILL to be free! And how is this possible if they don't have a will that is free?

Such questions cannot be answered LOGICALLY by any Calvinst.

What is worse is that FREEWILL is a Bible term. To call it a fiction is to attack the author of holy wirit, which is something quite Calvinistic. Attacking His glorious character and love is standard fare for the Calvinist apologist while thinking he makes God look great by making Him a cruel tyrant and control-freak dictator. Calvinism has driven more men away from the Lord than any other false doctrine, and rightly so. Even sinful men can see the repugnance of such ideas being ascribed to One who is good and love first and foremost. Men know they are sinners, and they know God is good and they ought to obey Him. They also know it is not God who makes them sinful and stay in sin, but their own choice. They know what they ought to do, and would never ascribe to God the blame that Calvinists do. This is the light of General Revelation that Paul taught in Romans One and Two that Gentiles have.

Hear the Word of the Lord in Levitticus One:

1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, [even] of the herd, and of the flock.

3 If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

Not only does man have a will weith which he can approach the Lord, God states man has HIS OWN voluntary will. Man has HIS OWN will, and it is VOLUNTARY. It is under NO COMPULSION, despite what Calvinists claim! God says otherwise! Here we have unregenerate Jews, dead in trespasses and sin, able to come to God for reconciliation, and God states that they must come OF THEIR OWN VOLUNTARY WILL!

This proves they have one, and that IT IS IMPORTANT TO GOD that they come to Him freely. God clearly despises the whole idea of compulsion! In 2Cor 8 we are told:

6 But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Notice again the idea of compulsion is condemned, and God HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. He wanted people to freely give, and we are further told that God LOVES a cheerful giver! Hmmmmmmmmn??? The concept of freewill is clearly taught in the Bible and the concept of "sovereignty" is not only not taught, but condemned by God. Praise the Lord!

Welcome to the "Lion's Den"!

We believe that men can and do choose, i.e., they are totally free to exercise their will... always in accord with their nature. A man who is unregenerate, aka: not born again, by the power of the Spirit, is DEAD in sin, spiritually DEAD and thus will never choose anything spiritual. The natural man loves sin and hates righteousness. The natural man loves himself and hates God. The natural man has no ability to believe on Christ nor any desire to do what God wills. But the regenerate man loves God, desires holiness and thus he will choose to live by faith in Christ and to do what God commands.

Can you please direct me to a Bible passage that uses the term "free-will"?

Yes, ALL are "invited", actually commanded (Acts 17:30) to repent and believe on Christ. But the command to do so is not synonymous with the ability to do so. Responsibility and ability are two entirely different things. Christ's sheep will abide in Him because He has sent His Spirit to abide in them to do that which God requires of them (Phil 2:12,13) and Christ forever makes intercession for them (Heb 7:25; cp. John 10:28,29; Rom 8:29,30).

Yes, ALL men have the law of God written on their hearts which they constantly and always disobey and for which God will judge them on that last day (Rom 2:14,15; 3:9-18; Gen 6:5; 8:21). Their corruption of nature is no excuse for sin is what ALL men desire most in their fallen state. They are FREE to sin. But they are not FREE to do righteousness (Jer 13:23; Matt 7:17,18; 12:33).

Yes, all this person had to do was to desire God. But that desire is not something any man has by nature. God must create that desire in a sinner, aka: regeneration, the creating of a new nature which is spiritual and inclined toward God, His truth and all that is good.

You have two passages above out of many I can cite.

Also, stating Calvinistic ideas is not proof.

The absurd idea that we can punish people for not being able to do what we command is immoral.

Imagine a father whipping his crippled child because she can't get up and walk at his command. Such behavior is reprehensible in men, and to ascribe such wickedness to God is blasphemy.

In Levitticus One above, we have spiritually dead men not only invited to come to God, but many do, and God says they can because they have THEIR OWN VOLUNTARY WILL. Sin did not destroy man's ability to come to God when He says "Come over here". They either will or they won't.

Also, repeating the mythical Calvinist definition of "free-will" that you claim to believe in is not proof. The idea that "men are free to do what they desire to do, and since they only desire sin, they are free to do that"--this is pure sophistry. Freedom of will means CHOICE to do opposite things.

There is no freedom or choice if one cannot do other than what he chooses. And God acknowledges fallen, spiritually dead men have such freedom. Joshua 24:

14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;


The above assumes the OBVIOUS--that men are free and CAN CHOOSE to follow the Lord or not. And notice that these spiritually DEAD IN SIN Jews chose to follow the Lord!

FREEWILL:


Leviticus 22:18
Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever [he be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his FREEWILL offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

Leviticus 22:21
And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish [his] vow, or a FREEWILL offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Leviticus 22:23
Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer [for] a FREEWILL offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Leviticus 23:38
Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your FREEWILL offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Numbers 15:3
And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a FREEWILL offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:

Numbers 29:39
These [things] ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your FREEWILL offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

Deuteronomy 12:6
And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your FREEWILL offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

Deuteronomy 12:17
Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy FREEWILL offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:

Deuteronomy 16:10
And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a FREEWILL offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give [unto the LORD thy God], according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

Deuteronomy 23:23
That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; [even] a FREEWILL offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

2 Chronicles 31:14
And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, [was] over the FREEWILL offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.

Ezra 1:4
And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the FREEWILL offering for the house of God that [is] in Jerusalem.

Ezra 3:5
And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a FREEWILL offering unto the LORD.

Ezra 7:13
I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and [of] his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own FREEWILL to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Ezra 7:16
And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the FREEWILL offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which [is] in Jerusalem:

Ezra 8:28
And I said unto them, Ye [are] holy unto the LORD; the vessels [are] holy also; and the silver and the gold [are] a FREEWILL offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

Psalms 119:108
Accept, I beseech thee, the FREEWILL offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.


VOLUNTARY:

Leviticus 1:3
If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own VOLUNTARY will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

Leviticus 7:16
But if the sacrifice of his offering [be] a vow, or a VOLUNTARY offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:

Ezekiel 46:12
Now when the prince shall prepare a VOLUNTARY burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, [one] shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth [one] shall shut the gate.

Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a VOLUNTARY humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

The "born-again before faith" doctrine you espouse is utterly false and a blatant creation of the Calvinist apologist to set aside the fact that fallen men can and do believe in the Gospel message. The order the Bible teaches is the opposite, as usual. Men believe, AND THEN they are regenerated. Prior to this, the Holy Spirit CONVICTS THEM of their sin, He does not regenerate them until AFTER they believe-Eph 1:12-13:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

It is as if Paul knew the Calvinists were coming one day, and so worded this so as to DESTROY the idea of being sealed with the Spirit Himself, which is what regeneration is-John 3:5-8, happens before we believe! Notice twice he says AFTER having already used the word FIRST. They--the Ephesians FIRST trusted in Christ AFTER they heard the gospel, they believed, and AFTER THAT they were sealed with the Spirit, which means he entered their hearts. He is the seal. he regenerates AFTER men believe, not before, which proves men CAN BELIEVE, which disproves Calvinism

1) Biblical ideas ARE proof however and Calvinism does just that.

2) Your example of the crippled child is irrelevant because it is not illustrative of the truth about man's fallen condition. All men are guilty before God and have inherited a corruption of nature because they sinned in Adam and this is the just punishment which we ALL received (Rom 5:12-18; 1Cor 15:21,22; Eph 2:1-5). The child didn't choose to be crippled, assuming that it was born in that condition. But the sinful nature which all men have they did will to have in Adam, according to the Scriptures, and were consequently punished for it. Thus their inability is due to their own doing.

3) Your references to a FREEWILL offering as proof of "free-will" is a joke, right?

Freedom of will does NOT mean "CHOICE" to opposite things. It simply means that a person is free to make choices according to his nature. Man will always choose that which is most important to him at any given time under any given circumstance.

You are wrong on many counts. Freedom is defined by a Calvinist in a way found NOWHERE IN THE KNOWN WORLD! It is an artificial construct to suit their inherently contradictory doctrine. It is man-made to save Calvinism not only from Biblical refutation, but from logical and rational refutation as well. Calvinism shipwrecks at the bar of Scripture, logic and reason, three gifts from God that expose the folly of men and religious falsehoods.

I said freewill is a Bible term. You asked for proof. I gave over a dozen references. Why is this a "joke" to you? Well, obviously because you can't answer. You asked for proof that freewill is a Bible term, as if it wasn't, and then when I give all those Scriptures, you ask if it is a joke? CHECK-MATE friend. I went further and listed the places God references man's VOLUNTARY WILL in COMING TO HIM. CHECK MATE.

Notice this line of argument from Pilgrim:

2) Your example of the crippled child is irrelevant because it is not illustrative of the truth about man's fallen condition. All men are guilty before God and have inherited a corruption of nature because they sinned in Adam and this is the just punishment which we ALL received (Rom 5:12-18; 1Cor 15:21,22; Eph 2:1-5). The child didn't choose to be crippled, assuming that it was born in that condition. But the sinful nature which all men have they did will to have in Adam, according to the Scriptures, and were consequently punished for it. Thus their inability is due to their own doing.

The above would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that some Christians actually believe this foppery. All people not yet born, not yet even existing "choose" to have a sinful nature that would make sure they couldn't believe and went to Hell??? How can non-existent non-beings "choose" anything??? And I thought GOD CHOSE? How is it these non-existent, non-sinful phantoms can choose anything, apart from God and then get blamed for it? Well...this is the problem of living in the Calvinist fantasy land of illogic, irrationality and delusion.

Further, my illustration fits Calvinism TO A "TEE". The fact of the matter is you claim men are born morally crippled and UNABLE to believe. So God COMMANDS THEM to believe, knowing they were born in this crippled condition and then punishes them for not uncrippling themselves! OH YES that is EXACTLY what you believe, minus all the flowery rhetoric and non-sense "explanations". The idea that people choose to have a nature that would damn them, that would incapacitate them from having heaven instead--the idea that they did this when THEY DID NOT EXIST is one is the stupidest things the depraved mind of man could utter to save the lie he chooses to believe in.


In Calvinism, God beats and punishes a cripple for not being able to walk. Further, God has the ability to heal the cripple so she can walk. But God "sovereignly" chooses not to, but BEATS THE CHILD FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER for her "crime". Yes, that is the "god" of Calvinism, and that is the "criminal justice system" of Calvinism. And when this is laid out in bare fashion, stripped of all its highsounding religious and pious talking fiction, immediatley the Calvinst recoils and tries TO DENY the ugly truth about what he REALLY believes. Very few Calvinists can bear the truth of what they believe when it is exposed in the open.

Free will is interwoven throughout the Bible. The problem isn't Calvinists denying free will, the problem is in how they define it.

And you cut off another of the hydra's heads. The Calvinist belief that man is totally depraved and incapable of good appears to be flatly contradicted by the conduct of Abel.


Well said. You are attacking this on two fronts, for it's very clear that both brothers had free will. And far from the exercise of free will trespassing on the sovereignty of God, here you have God pleading for Cain to choose righteously.


Unfortunately these arguments with Calvinists go in circles because they are thinking along a different paradigm. From the outside looking in, Calvinists believe man cannot have complete, unfettered free will outside of what has been preordained for him because that would subtract from God's sovereignty. Man is free to ride the train, but the tracks only go in one direction. Man is free to cast his vote, but his ballot only has one candidate. So in the Calvinist mindset, man freely chooses what has already been predetermined for him. It's an oddly hilarious circular paradox, but it makes perfect sense to them.

You actually won this debate the moment you brought up Job. For if Job could not choose perdition, having been predestined to choose God's righteousness, then it would have been a hollow victory indeed and Satan would have made mention of it. Satan's reasoning for Job's righteousness is that God set a hedge of protection and blessing around him. Satan was trying to make the case that Job's righteousness hung on the thread of God's blessing, and once the blessing was removed, Job would certainly curse God. Even Satan understood that Job had free will and could choose to die. Brought to its logical conclusion, the Calvinist view actually becomes an assault on God's glory here.

Let's consider this more closely. Would Satan have failed to object to the terms of this wager if Job's righteous decisions hinged on God's grace to quicken him from a state of total depravity? Would Satan. skilled lawyer that he is, have neglected to point out that because Job couldn't freely choose God without "help" that God's glory has thereby been diminished? Would Satan not demand a more equal field of play in which Job had uninfringed free-agency by which to make his choice?

The logic here proves fatal to Calvinist theology, does it not?

Dear free-will
like I said this is all new to me but I have a few questions for you. If you have 2 inner-city children with all things being equal and you give to both the opportunity for an education all living paid, you even promise them success to the point of becoming famous wealthy professionals. There is only one condition- sometimes it will be very hard and present state will be the easy path of least resistance. One chooses the hard way with a future, the other prefers to stay with his life as it is. Would we not say cudos to the one who chooses wisely and tsk, tsk , tsk, to the other? Would there not be some small boasting the wise boy could rightfully claim? Yet the bible says in no way can we take credit for ANY of the salvation process.

You said to mix "truth with faith". Ok where do I get that faith? I don't have it in me, it is the gift of God. I was an agnostic jew, I cried out to God when I never even knew His name. Did I just have that "just right amount of goodness" in me to hunger for my creator? I might be new in this but this much I KNOW- HE put that hunger in there I did not.
I have a daughter. When she was little if she were to say" I am going to cross the busy street outside, it looks fun". I as a responsible parent would stop her no matter what it took because I know the danger there. She cannot see that danger.Are you saying that as a child of God that He will do any less for me? Knowing me from before the foundation of the world will He let me cross the street and say "ok, its your choice". If our God said "none shall pluck them out of my hand", I consider Rachel her biggest threat Why didn't He say "None but yourself"? Sorry for the rambling.

Why is regeneration necessary if man can believe without first being regenerated? Why is it then also not possible for man to simply do the right things?

Johan

"…God must be greatly disappointed in these events; and so the grand scheme and contrivance for our redemption, and destroying the works of the devil by the Messiah, and all the great things God has done in the prosecution of these designs, must be only the fruits of His own disappointment, and contrivances of His to mend and patch up, as well as He could, His system which originally was all very good, and perfectly beautiful, but was marred, broken, and confounded by the free will of angels and men." - Jonathan Edwards (The Freedom of the Will, 131-132)

Now there is a classic refutation undergirded by sound exegesis.

Calvinism asserts no such thing. We would assert that Abel was regenerate at the time of this offering, else he would have followed the manner of Cain's 'free-will' offering, which was contrary to what was required.

1. It has not been established that free-will is interwoven throughout the Bible. It is assumed but not proven.

2. Calvinists define free-will as the ability to choose that which is contrary to one's nature. This has been established with myriad passages from Scripture. And by this definition, even God Himself doesn't have free-will, for God cannot sin. Man will always choose that which is most important to him under any given circumstance. And fallen man having a corruption of nature which is at enmity with God will always choose that which is sin. (Gen 6:5; 8:21; Jer 13:23; Rom 8:7,8, et al)

1Jh 3:1 explains things clearly... Abel's works were righteous, which according to Jesus and Paul, his works were righteous because the tree was made good, i.e., Cain had a regenerate nature which was predisposed toward God and all that was good (Matt 7:16-20; 12:33; Rom 3:9-18; cf. Ps 53:1-3; 8:29,30; Eph 1:4; 2:1-3,8-10; 4:17-19; 5:25-27; Col 1:21,22).

1. As explained elsewhere, IF man has this Pelagian/semi-Pelagian 'free-will', then if held consistently, which some do, then you end up with "Open Theism/Middle Knowledge" where God is not Omnipotent. Why? Because God cannot know the future, regardless if God is 'outside of time' or not, due to the fact that He cannot know what any individual will do until that individual decides to exercise this free-will.

2. IF free-will is true, then prophecy is impossible, for there is an infinite number of possibilities concerning the creation, which could take place that would thwart its fulfillment. Only if God has foreordained all things and providentially governs all things to their appointed ends is prophecy possible.

3. The epitome of the biblical, Calvinist system is marvelously displayed in the crucifixion of Christ. No one was forced against their will to crucify Him. Each individual did exactly and most freely what they wanted to do... YET, all was done in complete conformity to God's eternal foreordination.

I was watching a video from John McArthur yesterday and I think one of the differences between free-will and reformed theology is something he mentioned. He said that the tension between what the Bible states about God's sovereignty in choosing whosoever He will, and what is understandable to us, is a huge distance. He stated that he was fine with God knowing more than we do and not choosing to make it crystal clear. He is God, we are not. The whole situation is so easily and neatly defined for the free-will believer. It is all wrapped up and delivered for our comfort and understanding. Just an observation...

Rachel,

I do understand what MacArthur was driving at, i.e., what appears to be a contradiction or incompatibility between God's total sovereignty in BOTH power and authority and man's full responsibility. However... the salient point is, Does the Bible teach these two ideas (doctrines)? If they are biblical doctrines then it doesn't matter whether we can comprehend the relationship between them. What everyone must do is accept them, not by faith alone but upon the testimonty of the written Word. Faith embraces the teachings AND it loves them because it is God's unassailable revealed will.

Martin Luther, who sparked the Protestant Reformation, was vehemently opposed to this Pelagian/semi-Pelagian heresy, which the Roman State Church held dear and continues to do so as one can see from the responses given by the Catholic members here.

Here's an article showing Luther's polemic against it: Martin Luther on Free-will.

Hello Pilgrim,
Great article! Thank you so much. You know I know it is never good to measure ones own perceptions to calculate the truth, but when you are looking into something like this matter in the word of God I have no other real facts of anyone's life but my own. As I look back on all the things in my life only I know of, how many times I should have been dead, how many times I went blithely on my journey in life without a thought of God, how many times God has intervened in my behalf, there is only one conclusion- He is the one that pursued me and enabled me to come to Him. To say other wise is to either be blind or a liar.
We are moving in a couple weeks and our new area has a PCA church! YES! I will finally get to be in a church where they see the truth. Can't wait.

I do hope and pray that this PCA church is one of the exceptions rather than the rule, e.g., it is faithful in both doctrine and practice to the Westminster Standards; its worship is according to the "Regulative Principle" and not 'contemporary' man-made will worship, that it loves and observes the Christian Sabbath, that it preaches and teaches the pure Gospel of sovereign free grace and not one of the popular heresies, e.g., Federal Vision, or the semi-Pelagian 'gospel' of the Four Spiritual Laws or Evangelism Explosion, etc. Doubtless, you will come to find out what this PCA church is all about soon enough.

Keep us informed as to how it goes, please.

Using that standard, it has similarly not been established that Calvinism is interwoven throughout the Bible. It is, after all, a matter of perspective. I don't see the unfettered free will of man as a threat to the sovereignty of God. Calvinists do.

People choose what is contrary to their nature given the right circumstances. A juror may, by nature, abhor capital punishment, but because of the special and aggravating circumstances of a crime, vote for death. Along the same school of thought, someone's "come to Jesus" moment is often preceded by a devastating loss, going to jail, guilt over sin, or a myriad of other circumstances that make them vulnerable and ready to receive the gospel. Though our nature is to reject God, God orchestrates the events of our lives to change our perspective and finally see our desperate need to be saved. The convertee never has his free will violated and is never dragooned into his decision. At the decision point, fashioned by God, a man can choose to reject still, small voice...and many do. For Calvinism to make sense, God would not go to this effort for somebody to reject his overtures. The very fact that people reject God after such a great effort to woo them undoes Limited Atonement and the rest of the TULIP with it.



Or God knows the beginning from the end without interfering with the choice of individuals who bring the future about. The slippery slope argument doesn't quite fit here.

Or both free-will and prophesy are true. Though the Calvinist proclaims God's sovereignty, t's a meager view that the Calvinists hold of God's sovereignty that requires cohersion at every level in order to bring about God's plan. A far more mysterious and grander view has God's plan being brought about to the tiniest detail while never violating the will of man. This calls for a level of control would certainly boggle the mind of man.

I'm failing to connect the dots here. Yes, nobody was compelled. Yes, people did what they wanted to do. Yes, God's plan was brought to fruition. How does this prove Calvinism?

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Perhaps one more passage to be quoted is Joseph, executor of Egypt's, words to his brothers that what they meant for evil, God meant for good. God's plan to save his people from famine would have been accomplished through the brothers' good deeds or evil. They were completely free to choose, and yet completely helpless to thwart God's plans, regardless of their choice. That's sovereignty worthy of the greatest wonder.

If God knows certainly what man will choose (and he does!), then man's choice has been determined already - whether by God, or by some other agency. And there's the rub. If God did not determine, who or what did? If God is omniscient but does not determine the choices men will make, then free will becomes little more than blind chance - it is fatalism, ultimately outside of God's control, thus denying God's omnipotence. The only other alternative is to deny God's omniscience.

But we say that God's omniscience cannot be divorced from his omnipotence - God knows all because he in his omnipotence determines all. There are no "corridors of time" which God must look down to see what you will choose to do 5 minutes from now. There is no knowledge that exists in some parallel sphere outside of God's mind. There is no chance or fate. Everything happens exactly as God has determined, to his own glory.


Neither of these are examples of "choosing against one's nature." In the first case, the juror's nature was either never opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances, or the juror's nature was changed to accept death penalty in at least one particular circumstance. In the second case, the nature of the sinner is changed - regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit. It is simply impossible to choose anything that is entirely against one's own nature.


I.e., man, not God, is ultimately responsible for his own salvation, because man's salvation rests finally on his own choice to be saved. This is what you are saying.


God does not expend any effort needlessly, & he does not intend to save everyone. I can think of not a single example in Scripture in which God went to "great lengths" to save an individual only to find his will thwarted by man's free choice. His overtures to mankind generally & to his visible people always accomplish the salvation of the elect, which is the intended effect.


You aren't responding to the dilemma. If God does not determine the choices men make, then how is it possible for God to know what choices will be made before they are made? These choices must have been predetermined somehow for God to have full & certain knowledge of them.


Again, you are simply ignoring the dilemma. Free will, understood as the ability of man to make any choice available, is not compatible with prophecy, in which the choices man will make must be known with absolute certainty. If man's will is actually "free" in the sense described, then it is not possible that his choices could be known with absolute certainty before those choices are made, because there is an indefinite number of series of choices that could be made. A single different choice made than predicted would completely undermine the reliability of prophecy.


Calvinism does not propose that man's will is ever "coerced" or "violated" by God. To the contrary, man always acts in accordance with his will. So what you've described here actually applies to Calvinism. Now, God may change man's will:


But this is not "coercion" or "violation." A will, once changed, is simply changed. It does not act contrary to itself in the act being changed.


It could not be by God's "determinate counsel & foreknowledge" if men had free will, because in that case it would not be possible to determine or foreknow what choices men would make - or, at any rate, it would not be by God's determinate council.


Here's what the verse says:


Note that it does not say that whatever their deeds were, God would have accomplished his plan. Rather, it says that God meant for their evil deeds to accomplish his good plan.


Yet you say that men regularly thwart God's plans for their salvation when they reject his wooing?

An old but well-known poem sums up the conundrum of the free-will position if God doesn't have absolute control over everything, determining the beginning and the end, even in regard to the most minute particle He created.

That's a fallacy of logic to suggest that God cannot know everything without controlling everything, even man whom he made in his own image.

I never liked the "corriders of time" analogy either. I rather like the image of God looking at a sphere that contains all of time and creation; seeing the beginning from the end. The fact that God created this sphere, in every exhaustive detail, in accordance with his perfect will, with every event conducted by people of entirely unhindered free will, is astounding.

Incorrect. A person can be wholly opposed to capital punishment having never been exposed to a perpective that would change his mind. By the same token, Saul was wholeheartely committed to pursuing and prosecuting Christians and driving the movement out of existence...until he had an experience that changed his view. To suggest that Paul, all that time, contained the nature to persecute Christians until he had the nature to not persecute Christians is to misunderstand what nature is.

Salvation is a result of the perfect, unaugmented death and resurrection of Christ as a propitiation for sins. The responsibility to receive forgiveness and eternal life is man's. The all-or-nothing thinking that if man chooses salvation over perdition it means he is saving himself is absurd. But then, the thought process of Calvinism as a whole is incontinent once one thinks outside of it.

Perhaps you're not looking for it in Scripture, having already made up your mind. When Agrippa told Paul, "thou almost persuadest me to become a Christian," there is a keen example of one nearly being convinced but turning away at the last moment. To suggest that God was not pursuing Agrippa is to suggest, contrary to reason, that God had not sent Paul to him in the first place. This is a simple matter of not seeking out any evidence that might confound your theological system. The reason I know that a person can come close to believing, being cut to the heart with the gospel message, is because I've seen it myself in some people I tried to bring to Christ. To say that God was not pursuing them (in sync with the Agrippa example) is to suggest that God had not prevailed upon me to try to reach them. Multiply this by the testamony of many other Christians who have similarly been turned down after trying to save someone. Maybe even yourself! Did you conclude that God not send you with the gospel to try to save someone just because they turned you down? Do you see the fallacy of logic here? If God did not die for someone and did not predestine them to life, then it follows that there would be no effort to prosecute them and would never send someone to bring the gospel to them. The very fact that the Hound of Heaven pursues all men flies right in face of Calvinistic thought.

So Jesus made Peter deny him 3 times? Or is it more likely that Jesus knew what state of mind Peter would be in and what conduct would follow it? Why is it so hard to understand that Jesus could know Peter's future choices without making those choices for him?

No, Calvinism is a man beside himself. While it proposes that man has free will, it juxtaposes that man can only make one choice. This way, Calvinism can deny man's free will while insisting it never denies man's free will. This is patent lunacy in my view.

While we're discussing what scripture does not say, it also does not say God made them do it. Quite the opposite. In that Joseph says, "you meant evil" their guilt is highlighted. They chose to commit their crime and God used their crime to bring about His purposes. Not implied here is that the crime was necessary for God's plan.

What I have actually suggested is that, if man has a free will in the sense you understand it, either God's omniscience or his omnipotence - or both - must be abandoned. You have yet to provide an explanation how God may know everything but not determine everything.


Assertions without the benefit of an argument. How could God create this world in exhaustive detail & in perfect accordance with his will without also immutably foreordaining whatsoever comes to pass? From your own position, in the very act of creating this world, in which God knew infallibly each choice that would be made by man, he thereby predetermined those same choices. After all, he was under no compulsion to create this world in the first place!


What you're positing is a mutable nature. Yes, men have mutable natures. Their natures can be changed. They never act contrary to their own natures, however. When Paul was convinced of the necessity of persecuting Christians, he did not act contrary to himself. When he was convinced otherwise, he changed his ways immediately. In either case he acted in accord with his own nature.


So, once again, man's salvation is up to his own choice. If he chooses to receive salvation, he will be saved. If he chooses to reject salvation, he will be damned. The choice is his & his alone - according to you.


First, Paul is not God. If God were trying to save Agrippa, then God's will in the matter could not possibly be thwarted, because God always accomplishes his desire. Paul's desires are frankly irrelevant to that point. Second, Paul was giving his defense against the accusations of the Jews. God's purpose in bringing him before Agrippa was that Agrippa would send him to Rome, as becomes clear in the following chapters of Acts.


Refrain from insulting me.


And perhaps God did not especially prevail upon you to try to reach them! Why is that not a possibility? Is your experience infallible? Regardless, our duty is to speak the truth of God, whether that truth soften & save them, or harden them in their reprobate state. It is not for us to second-guess the secret purposes of God.


Countless millions of men have died with no further knowledge of God than what may be derived from nature. This reality flies in the face of your claims. You also ignore the very real possibility that God's purpose is in some cases to remove all excuses they may claim for their rebellion, magnifying his justice.


No, Jesus did not "make" Peter deny him thrice. Peter did that quite willingly; but God had predetermined that Peter would do so, hence Jesus was able to prophesy it with absolute certainty. If he had not predetermined that Peter would do so, then there is no basis on which Jesus could expect that his prophecy would hold true. What you are consistently failing to grasp is that God's complete & infallible knowledge of our choices necessarily implies that those choices have already been determined, before we have ever had the opportunity to make them. That being the case, the question is who or what determined them. The only appropriate answer is God.


Calvinism simply denies "free will" as you have defined it. It holds rather that man is "free" to act in accordance with his will. Since the will of man is in bondage to sin as a result of the fall, man will only ever act sinfully (i.e., apart from faith in God), unless his will is changed. Calvinism does not propose that man is compelled by God to act in any way that he does not fundamentally wish to act.


Your continual assertion that God's infallible knowledge of our choices is just possible without predetermination is what's stale. You have not presented a single argument how it is possible; you've only merely asserted it & told us how mysterious & wondrous it all is. On the other hand, I & Pilgrim have already gone into detail why it is impossible that God to have infallible knowledge of our choices without predetermination. As far as death of Christ is concerned, since the Pharisees had free will on your view, they could have chosen at any time to change their minds about Christ. Moreover, the involvement of the Romans - who were at best indifferent to the fate of Christ - complicates matters further. Pilate could readily have decided to release Jesus, since he himself found no real reason for Christ to be condemend. Any of the Roman guards could have decided to let Jesus go, for whatever reason they might have. Ergo, God's counsel could not have been "determinate," only a best guess based on the circumstances prevailing at the time he decided to deliver his Son over. Much less still could God have promulgated immutable prophecy concerning Christ's suffering & death centuries earlier! No, but because innumerable human choices were involved in orchestrating this "opportunity," it would not have been possible to orchestrate it at all without foreordaining the choices that would be made. As it is written:



No one here has ever said that God "made them do it." I suggest you do not insist on this caricature of the Calvinist position. Indeed, God did use their crime to bring about his purpose; in fact, God MEANT (i.e., he intended) for their crime to bring about his plan. Whether it was "necessary" is not the question. God, being omnipotent, could have brought about his plan in whatever way he deemed fit. But the fact remains that God chose this particular course, in which Joseph's brothers made their particular evil choice, in order to bring about his plan. In other words, God not only intented their crime for good; he intended their crime in the first place. But they committed the crime willingly & for their own evil purposes, thus incurring guilt.