'Theology Discussion Group'

Subject: Concern for a relative From: Tom To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 12:52:03 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: I have a relative who does not have a lot of Bible knowledge, who I am afraid is being duped, by someone with their own web site. Although, I am knowledgable enough to know that what is on this site is bad theology. For someone who isn't all that knowledgable. This persons site, would seem to make some pretty good points. I am trying to show, my relative, just how this person is wrong. But I think I need help in doing so. If there is anyone, who is willing to help in this regard, please go to the following site: http://www.remnantofgod.org/~nicholas/Truthpro.htm Either post your findings here or e-mail me. Any help I can get, would be very appreciated. Thank you in advance Tom

Subject: Re: Concern for a relative From: Pilgrim To: Tom Date Posted: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 17:21:45 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tom, First of all I edited your message and corrected the URL so it now works! no charge!. So, I sauntered over to that sight and waited almost 5 minutes for all the brightly colored graphics to load, hehe, and took a brief look at was there. Brother, there is soooooo much heresy there I couldn't possibly tell you where to begin. So, perhaps for the sake of all of us here, who are willing to give you a hand with your relative, you might tell us just what specifically this relative of yours finds most appealing? Then we could try and address the issue(s) involved. Otherwise we will be chasing windmills. :-) In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Cults and Sharing the Gospel From: Brother Bret To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:12:25 (PST) Email Address: Lovitz5@juno.com Message: With the several admonitions to avoid, withdraw, turn away, not be hospitable, etc with false teachers, how biblical do you think it is when we try to reach out to cults such as JW's and Mormons and others? Look forward to the responses. Brother Bret

Subject: Re: Cults and Sharing the Gospel From: laz To: Brother Bret Date Posted: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 06:36:45 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmmmm, I think the biblical issue/admonition you are refering to applies WITHIN the local Church (or within Churches that share the communion table) .... it may not apply to folks in other aberrant sects or cults, who rarely never darken our Church doors, and should be regarded as unbelievers and thus objects of our efforts to make disciples of all. But even then, there comes a time when we must also consider not casting pearls before swine, giving what is holy to the dogs after our efforts have been spurned. I got a question: Should pastors (the good ones) avoid contact with false teachers/preachers? Or should they try to reason with them from the Scriptures? laz

Subject: Re: Cults and Sharing the Gospel From: Brother Bret To: laz Date Posted: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:48:10 (PST) Email Address: Lovitz5@juno.com Message: Hmmm brother, you trying to tell me something? :^ ). I know, I know, if the shoe fits, where it hehe. I would think that the same thing would apply to Pastors. A couple of those admonitions are from Paul to Timothy. I'll look at the passages and contexts closer, but I don't know that all the admonitions are just for 'within' the local church. Would the 'withdrawing' and 'avoiding' be accomplished by eventual excommunication if there is no repentence by the erring person? Couldn't the admonistions also be to Christians in the Church as they deal with people in the highways and byways of life? BTW, I never did go on the radio show with that erring feller :^ ) Brother Bret

Subject: Re: Cults and Sharing the Gospel From: Tom To: laz Date Posted: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:50:38 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: Laz You asked: Should pastors (the good ones) avoid contact with false teachers/preachers? Or should they try to reason with them from the Scriptures? It is my experience that many false teachers/preachers believe that they are teaching truth. Some even say if they are convinced by the scriptures that they are wrong in any doctrine. They they will bow to the scriptures. Given the fact that we do not know if that person will or will not, bow to the scritures, a pastor should try to reason with them from the scriptures. (if I may borrow a quote from you) But even then, there comes a time when we must also consider not casting pearls before swine, giving what is holy to the dogs after our efforts have been spurned. Tom

Subject: Re: Cults and Sharing the Gospel From: john To: Brother Bret Date Posted: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:45:40 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How is one cult different from another? Are they not all together unworthy: is a cult more unworthy than a Methodist or a Pentecostal. Are there degrees in needing salvation: some a little and other’s more? Here is a nautical analogy. There are a thousand ships on life's seas, all different, but all sinking into the depths of confusion. Death awaits them all. You have a means to save some, a life raft. You are called by the ship's Captain to present the case on His behalf. If any person on any doomed ship desires to be saved, then you throw out your raft and help rescue them. It doesn't matter if they are seeking help while aboard a 'cult' ship, or some other ship. You provide assistance to whoever desires it. If no one seeks your raft, then so be it, their blood is not on our hands. The danger when dealing with leaky vessels full of holes is that we should think to abandon the safety of our sturdy vessel or by their trickery compromise our position of safety and seek to tie ourselves to their ship. Nevertheless, there is no need for worry if we stick to the commission our Captain has given us. We are not to bind ourselves in any way with these lost ships, or lest we drown together. We are not to prop up what was meant to sink. Therefore, we throw our life preserver to whoever desires it, no matter the ship that carries them. Yet we stay aboard the safety of our secure vessel, high and dry, no matter what others might implore us to do. john

Subject: Matt. 24:13 From: Tom To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 12:45:58 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: At the risk of being misunderstood. I am definately not asking the following question to support Chrys' beliefs. I am trying to understand what Matt. 24:13 is saying 'But he that shall endure unto the end shall be saved.' I am sure that it is not saying what at first glance it seems to be saying, for that would be conflicting with other verses of scripture, such as 1 John 2:19. What is it saying? Tom

Subject: Re: Matt. 24:13 From: Pilgrim To: Tom Date Posted: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:20:50 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At the risk of being misunderstood. I am definately not asking the following question to support Chrys' beliefs. I am trying to understand what Matt. 24:13 is saying 'But he that shall endure unto the end shall be saved.' I am sure that it is not saying what at first glance it seems to be saying, for that would be conflicting with other verses of scripture, such as 1 John 2:19. What is it saying? Tom Tom, What Rod replied is quite true. This text in Matt 24:13 is troublesome ONLY if one fails to keep straight the two fundamental doctrines of Scripture; God's absolute sovereignty and man's full responsibility. On the one hand, salvation is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9). From His immutable counsel in eternity to and through the elect's glorification, a sinner is in His hands. All is of God; we are saved 'by grace'! Therefore we hold to Sola Gratia, secured by Solus Christus and obtained by Sola Fide all of which is for Soli Deo Gloria as testified as truth by Sola Scriptura. (whew!) At the same time, on the other hand, it is the sinner who repents! It is the sinner who believes! It is the sinner who must endure to the end! Thus the inspired words of Matthew in the gospel are not to be diminished one iota. It is ONLY those who endure to the end who will experience that which they profess. As faith without works is dead, so is a life shown to be fallacious if it doesn't continue in those things which were first begun. Faith doesn't merit the salvation it brings! It is but the means by which one apprehends Him Who has earned the right to save. Likewise, the enduring enjoined doesn't merit salvation, nor does it put the actual salvation at risk, but rather it shows forth the salvation possessed. And so it is, that any who fail to endure to the end show themselves to be unconverted and never in possession of that which they professed to possess; reconciliation with God and the new life wrought by the Holy Spirit. We must not therefore, shy away from giving the full import of such texts as Matt 24:13 which exhort a person to do this or that out of fear of somehow compromising the equally true reality of God's predestination and preserving, providential mercy and grace. BOTH are true and must exist side by side, even though it seems impossible to reconcile the two in our own finite minds. The Scriptures teach it, we must believe it! :-) In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Matt. 24:13 From: Rod To: Tom Date Posted: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 14:55:15 (PST) Email Address: na Message: Tom, First, let me affirm that you are exactly right in reading the entire Bible to get your truth and not relying on one verse lifted from the Bible and its context to get your theology. Don't be shaken in what you know is true from the whole of Scripture. (And please see my post of a little while ago under 'laz and Rod.') Our friend Chrysostomos is fond of citing Luther, but one of Luther's statements from a sermon I quoted awhile back speaks to this. In that sermon, Luther deplored people saying that statements pronouncing security for Paul or another Bible writer were not doctrinal, but applied strictly to the person writing. Luther loudly proclaimed that such statements were 'doctrinal' and to be applied universally, to every believer, just as most of us here accept them. Salvation is both completed and ongoing in time. In Rom. 8:30 the entire process, including our final glorification with the Lord Jesus is viewed as past. That is as God sees it. But, in time, and as man sees it, it is both assured and is ongoing. We 'are saved': 'For we are saved by hope...' (Rom. 8:24). We 'have been saved': '...according to the power of God who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our own works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...' (2 Tim. 1:9). Finally, we 'shall be saved': 'For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved' (Rom. 10:13). That covers all the bases, doesn't it?

Subject: Re: Matt. 24:13 From: Tom To: Rod&Pilgrim Date Posted: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:07:31 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: Thanks Guys As you are aware, I believe the P in TULIP wholeheartedly. However that doesn't mean I know how to reconcile every scripture that seems to contradict it. It is for that purpose that I came to a place where I know that I can find some answers. I had earlier checked a few commentaries on the verse. Not one of them gave as good an answer as you. One in fact just said something to the effect that, we shouldn't take this to mean that one can loose their salvation. However, they didn't tell what the verse actually meant. Thanks for answering my question. :-) Tom

Subject: 1Joh2:19 Isn't it clear? From: laz To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 11:02:17 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Is there something unclear about these verses. Does Chry really believe it's talking about teachers? That teachers who leave the flock prove they were never of the flock...but that garden variety believers who leave the flock were truly saved/believers who CAN and DO apostacize? Rod, is that what you said is the position held by Chrysostomos? blessings, laz

Subject: Re: 1Joh2:19 Isn't it clear? From: Rod To: laz Date Posted: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:25:20 (PST) Email Address: na Message: Laz, Here is what Chrysostomos wrote to me from 'Wow, lots of topics to discuss' on Jan 23: (Lifting a quote from Rod) '>>>>All that's necessary to see that is to believe 1 John 2:19.' (Chrysostomos' response) 'You know, I did have a chat with Pilgrim about that verse last week or so (my original post to him on it was entitled 'question for Pilgrim') and he clarified what he meant by quoting it (given the rest of 1 John 2, which seems much more obviously appliciable to the individual believer). Anyway, I just don't understand making it such a pivotal verse in your argument, since it seems to be primarily directed at teachers (though there certainly is a component of individual salvation there). In any case, I think you're explaining away the clear meaning of my quote. However, I suppose that's the problem. The clear can't really interpret the unclear unless we're all agreed on which ones are clear to begin with.'

Subject: Thks for clarification. NT From: laz To: Rod Date Posted: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:48:50 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Common Grace From: Trevor Johnson To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 18:02:50 (PST) Email Address: trevorjohnson@hotmail.com Message: This question concerns common grace. There is that grace which does not save, but which provides some goodness even in the hearts of the unsaved. Otherwise, the unsaved would be at each other's throats instantly. God is merciful to all in this common grace, and love all with some gifts, and yet, does not love all with all gifts (namely, eternal life). My question: What is the relationship between God's common grace and Christ's purchase? I welcome all replies....this has the potential to make a good discussion and will help edify all involved - including me!

Subject: Re: Common Grace From: laz To: Trevor Johnson Date Posted: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 19:23:57 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Trevor! I think Christ's purchase of redemption for His people creates model citizens, great neighbors, charitable organizations, etc, etc...in otherwords, more common grace being dispensed to society at large on account of Christian activity and conduct. blessings, laz p.s. now if you're really asking about the extent/nature/purpose of the atonement...just come out with it! hahaha!

Subject: Re: Common Grace From: David Teh To: laz Date Posted: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:09:42 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi folks, I am kind of leaning towards the opinion that says the reprobate are living on 'borrowed time' until God's plan of redemption is complete. [Yes, I am a Calvanist.] The issue here, it seems, is what exactly is the fallen human nature.

Subject: Misconceptions of the... From: Rod To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:33:10 (PST) Email Address: na Message: uninformed and nonreformed. :^) In reading some of the posts of the last couple of days, I was reminded that the majority most often don't understand some of the basics. I'm referring to the allegations of Chrysostomos that, according to the belief system of those of us here, that is, the Bible :^), God 'coerces' men into receivng grace/having faith/being saved if they are elect. He, according to that line of thought, forces them to come to Him disregarding their wills, whereas the 'right thing to do' is to allow them to make up their own minds whether they want him or not. It's often hard to deal with all the issues in a thread or post, since so many complicated things are brought up. One has to be choosy as to what he deals with or volumes will be written. And some of us (I won't mention any names, but one's initials are 'Rod') are too wordy anyway. :^) So, to set the record straight, neither the 'Calvinists' nor the Bible believe that man is forced to come to God in violation of his will. Man isn't cleaned up or wooed by God to come to Him either. I'm speaking of the natural, unregenerate man. That man is absolutely dead to God, God's total enemy. He is incapable of pleasing God and has no desire ever to do so (Rom. 3:9-20; 8:7-9; 1 Cor. 2:14). This is the result of the inheritance of Adam's nature; all men join him in the fall (1 Cor. 15:21-22). This natural man is hopeless and spiritually dead. He doesn't want to be redeemed and is not redeemable. His will is to serve sin and he is 'free from righteousness,' being dead to it (Rom. 6:20). His will is not violated; he gets what he wants. So, what is the answer then? How does a man become regenerate and saved? How does he come to God? The only way is this: God gives him a new will which is a result of regeneration. The Spirit of God comes to the predestinated/elect person because of God's love for him and makes him alive to Himself (Eph. 2:4-5). This 'new man,' the 'new creation' (2 Cor. 5:17), has, quite logically, a new will, a will from the Spirit of God Who gave him life. That will desires and is free to turn to God, to love and serve Him. Operating by faith, believing the Word of promise of God which he can receive for the first time ever (Rom. 10:17), the 'new man' freely and willingly turns to God by the grace thus provided and is saved by the gift of God through faith. The old man, with his old will, struggles through the flesh and its desires to overcome the new man and drag him into sin. When one is enticed and allows himself to, he does fall into sin (James 1:13-15). So the old man isn't killed. He must physically die to be disposed of. The old man's will isn't violated by God, but is to be kept under by faithful obedience of the new creation in Christ whose will is to serve the Lord God in obedience to his nature. That is precisely why no Christian is 'perfect' practically, but is perfect positionally. He sins, but he is seen by God as possessing the righteousness of Christ Jesus on account of faith gifted to him by grace, the sins of the old man being forgiven the new creation in Christ. ''BUT AS IT IS WRITTEN, EYE HATH NOT SEEN, NOR EAR HEARD, NEITHER HAVE ENTERED INTO THE HEART OF MAN, THE THINGS WHICH GOD HATH PREPARED FOR THEM THAT LOVE HIM [the reason the unregenerate perceive these things as ridiculous]. BUT GOD HATH REVEALED THEM UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT; FOR THE SPIRIT SEARCHETH ALL THINGS, YEA, THE DEEP THINGS OF GOD...NOW WE HAVE RECEIVED, NOT THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD, BUT THE SPIRIT WHO IS OF GOD; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN OF GOD.' (1 Cor. 2:9-12).

Subject: Who can be saved? From: Pilgrim To: Chrysostomus Date Posted: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:42:35 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chrysostomus, In a message below Rod asked you the following question: >>>>You mention that people are saved without baptism. Then, if the 'laver of regeneration' is true, from whence come the exceptions? And you answered: I mentioned that it's possible. I could think of any number of situations: the guy that gets hit by the bus that I mentioned, some peasant in China who'd never heard the Gospel, someone who grows up and spends their whole life only hearing heresy, etc. My only point there is that God knows all hearts and He's the one who judges them. Not us. I find this statement of yours intriguing, to say the least. Why? because you have stated on numerous ocassions that you reject 'Sola Fide'! And in its place you believe that one is justified by faith: through the 'church' + baptism + good works +?. Now given that even these things, regardless of the number of items you would either add or subtract as necessary for one to be justified before God, what is clearly absent from the examples you have mentioned above, of those who 'could' be saved, is the sacrificial work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus: On what basis are people saved without faith in the Lord Christ? What impetus is there for anyone to believe on Christ and strive to live according to God's holy law if salvation is possible otherwise? In His Precious Blood, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Who can be saved? From: Chris To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 05:48:19 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At the risk of sounding simplistic, Who can be saved? Whosoever believes. 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life' John 3:16 ASV And whosoever can believe? 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 NKJV

Subject: Re: Who can be saved? From: Chrysostomus To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:29:17 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: >>>>>Chrysostomus, With eye winking and elbow nudging: 'Finally, I must ask readers to be indulgent with the inconsistencies in my spelling of Greek proper names. All my life I have been impatient with the patronising way with which we westerners present Greek names in their Latin forms, and, in my old age, I decided to break free from it, adopting the principles used by my stand-by mini-encyclopedia, Der Kleine Pauly. Unfortunately, I have sometimes deviated from its high standards--for example, printing Chalkedon but shying away from from Nikaia.' --JND Kelly, from the Introduction to Golden Mouth, The Story of John Chrysostom; Ascetic, Preacher, Bishop. Sorry, I couldn't resist... >>>>you have stated on numerous ocassions that you reject 'Sola Fide'...And in its place you believe that one is justified by faith: through the 'church' + baptism + good works +? Looks like Luther did, too. And he invented Sola Fide. That was my original point, the one you called 'pseudo-history.' You said you weren't interesting in discussing it. If you do decide you want to pick the conversation back up, let me know, since your same accusations could be leveled at Dr Luther, and he's supposed to be on your 'side.' Chrysostomos 'It is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools.' --from 'An Introduction to St. Paul's Letter to the Romans,' Luther's German Bible of 1522

Subject: Re: Who can be saved? From: Pilgrim To: Chrysostomus Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:44:00 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chrysostomos, Gee, the fact that I asked the questions I thought would give a clear indication that I wanted answers? hahaha. As to your quote from Martin Luther regarding the inseparability of faith and works, I can without hesitation give my unqualified Amen! That's because I know Luther rejected categorically any form of works contributing to justification as he has boldly stated, 'simul iustus et peccatore'! Justification necessitates Sanctification. However, Sanctification in no way contributes to Justification, but only displays the reality of that Justification. Of course, James spelled that out in his inspired letter. :-) Now, will you please answer my few questions? :-) In His Grace, Pilgrim LUTHERAN THEOLOGIAN MARTIN CHEMNITZ (1522-1586) ON JUSTIFICATION: This unique doctrine in a special way distinguishes the church from all other nations and religions....[Justification] is the pinnacle and chief bulwark of all teaching and of the Christian religion itself; if this is obscured, adulterated, or subverted, it is impossible to retain purity of doctrine in other loci. On the other hand, if this locus is securely retained, all idolatrous ravings, superstitions and other corruptions are thereby destroyed (Loci Theologici II, p. 443)

Subject: Re: Who can be saved?? From: Chrysostomos To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:00:45 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pilgrim, At least you still have a sense of humor, I'm glad to see... >>>>Now, will you please answer my few questions? :-) Make you a deal. At least three times, I suggested that the notion of baptismal regeneration, as Luther has stated it, not me, is far less illogical than than the following statement from Rod: 'The fact that none except those elect are enabled to hear it doesn't lessen the fact that the offer is genuinely made.' Now, since I know you hold to the same notion as Rod (whom I do not in the least intend to disparage here, since I very much appreciate both our conversations and his zeal), I will address your two questions in depth if you would be so kind as to tell me how the above statement doesn't stand directly in contrast to plain old common sense, much less logic (and, lest I forget, a whole buncha Scriptures). Chrysostomos PS--what happened to St Worm? I see he's been posting on that other board lately. Came in with a flurry of posts and then--nothing. That's too bad.

Subject: Re: The "Free Offer" From: Pilgrim To: Chrysostomos Date Posted: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 17:21:45 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chrysostomos, DEAL! Your question is in reference to what Rod said in another post which was: 'The fact that none, except those elect, are enabled to hear it doesn't lessen the fact that the offer is genuinely made.' I am going to presume here that you are primarily questioning the truth of God's sincerity or genuineness in the 'free offer' of the gospel in relation to the truth held by Calvinists that God has from all eternity predestinated some to everlasting life and the remainder to eternal torment. First of all it must be emphasized that the 'genuineness' of the offer of salvation which is found in Christ Jesus depends not upon the action and/or response of the intended recipient but only upon the intention of the Giver. Whether or not any recipient of the actual 'offer' accepts or rejects it; whether that individual is even able to accept it or reject it is of no consequence to the sincerity of the God Who has extended it to him. I would offer to you as indisputable proof of God's unquestionable genuineness and verity in His benevolence shown toward the reprobate and unbelieving from the following texts: Deut 5:29 (v. 26 in Hebrew); 32:29; Psa 81:13ff (vvs 81:14 in Hebrew); Isa 45:22; 48:18; Jer 32:17; Ezek 18:23; 33:11; Matt 5:44-48; 23:37; Lk 13:34; Acts 4:17. I hope no commentary is necessary to explain any of these texts, although I am willing to do so if found necessary. Secondly, the 'free offer' of the gospel must always include all its elements; two of which are 'repentance' and 'faith' as the prerequisites to be performed by any man so as to obtain the justification/salvation promised in the overture itself to come to Christ. There is no salvation apart from those prerequisites being done by the sinner. And both of these are expressions of a regenerated soul. First, some of the proofs for the inability of any man to repent and/or believe upon Christ in his natural state: Gen 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; 15:14-16; Eccl 9:3; Jer 12:23; 17:9; Matt 7:16-18; 12:33; Jh 6:44, 65; 10:26; Rom 8:7, 8; 11:35, 36; 1Cor 2:14; 4:7 2Cor 3:5; Eph 4:17-19. Second, some of the proofs that repentance and faith are sovereignly bestowed upon men according to the good pleasure of God as He wills; Ps 110:3; Matt 11:25-27; Jh 3:5-7, 37; 5:21; 6:37; 10:16; Acts 2:47; 3:16; 5:31; 11:18; 13:48; Rom 8:29, 30; Eph 2:1-5; Phil 1:29; 2Thess 2:13 2Tim 2:25, 26; Titus 3:3-5; Jam 1:18; 2Pet 3:9. There must always be a recognition between the 'decretive' will of God and the 'preceptive' will of God. In the former, whatsoever the LORD God has foreordained will come to pass. In the latter, whatever is published as God's law and therefore rule must and should be observed by men, but such observation may not be done by men. In fact no man does or can do that which the law of God requires wholly. For proofs of the 'decretive will of God see: Job 12:13ff; 23:13; Ps 33:6-11; 148:1-5; Isa 14:24, 27; 55:11; 46:10; Lam 3:37; Dan 4:35; Acts 2:23; 4:28; Eph 1:9, 11; Heb 6:17. As to the preceptive will of God, this is so obvious, that I see no need of referencing the countless texts which affirm it. The 'free offer' of the gospel comes under the preceptive will of God, Who has declared in all sincerity, that all who come to the Christ in repentance and faith will surely and infallibly be saved. (Matt 11:28-30; Jh 6:37-39; et al). However, the number of those who will be saved is fixed in the heavens by God's decretive will, of which no man can number nor can they know who they be. Thus the gospel goes out to all indiscriminately proclaiming that Christ is dead for sinners and that in Him and Him alone there is remission and forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God and the adoption as sons who are heirs of the present kingdom and the new heaven and new earth. In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Oh, P.... From: Chrysostomos To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:51:58 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was hoping for something that I could again just slap in a quote from Luther, but you're not giving it to me. hehe. You've given a thoughtful response, so I'll do you the courtesy of same. See you in a day or so... Chrysostomos

Subject: Re: Who can be saved?? From: laz To: Chrysostomos Date Posted: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 13:53:22 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chry - there is no inconsistency...not from God's perspective. You are suggesting that God is unfair in His 'genuine offer' as we have presented matters. Right? Was Pharoah given a 'genuine offer'? Apparently NOT for he was created for a specific purpose by God. Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. You and others would have us cry, 'FOUL!' When did Pharoah get to exercise his 'freewill'? Where was the genuine offer to Pharoah to do what was noble and right? Where was Pharoah's chance to redeem himself...to grab hold of salvation's hand? To repent and team up with Moses? Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Who has resisted God's will? NO ONE! EVER! Pharoah did as God had ordained. Again, is God now unfair??? Here is the answer many despise: Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Bottom line: God is in total control and offers His mercy to whomever He determines. And since God is impassible, having no shadow of turning ... His decisions were made in eternity past. Pharoah did what God ordained for him to do...as were the men who kill Jesus (Act 2:23). Yet, none are held blameless for their sin. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. laz

Subject: Re: Who can be saved?? From: Rod To: laz Date Posted: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 14:21:28 (PST) Email Address: na Message: laz. Let me state up front that I in no way disagree with you. Yet I think I know you well enough to say that you believe that Pharaoh was given the genuine offer in the command to 'let my people go.' And in the demonstrations of God's power and might, which his magicians finally failed to duplicate. He was given many proofs and the direct Word of God though His mouthpiece. He did what his will, as a lost man unenabled by the Spirit of God to believe, was free to do: He rejected God's revelation, as all lost men do, just as they are free to do. God was actually, in many ways, and over a period of time, very patient with Pharaoh's unbelief. He demonstrated what was in man's heart, just as the Lord Jesus did: 'But Jesus did not commit himself to them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man; for he knew what was in man...Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again' (John 2: 24-25 and 3:7).

Subject: Re: Who can be saved?? From: laz To: Rod Date Posted: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 15:41:56 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rod - I guess I failed to emphasize the 'human responsibility' aspect of the sovereignty equation. Thanks and blessings, laz p.s. I just went back to reread my post...and see where you misunderstood me...I was being sarcastic in suggesting that Pharoah did NOT receive a genuine offer. Of course he did...as none are with excuse. I should have been more clear. ;-)

Subject: Re: Who can be saved?? From: Rod To: laz Date Posted: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 15:54:09 (PST) Email Address: na Message: Hi, laz, I wan't 'correcting' you at all, brother :^). I was in complete agreement with you in every respect. I just wanted to elaborate. BTW, that was an excellent post earlier under 'Logical inconsistencies.'

Subject: Re: Who can be saved?? From: Rod To: Chrysostomos Date Posted: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:35:36 (PST) Email Address: na Message: Chrysostomos, I don't want to butt in on you and Pilgrim, but the explanation to my absurdity and foolishness is in the next thread above and in Chris' post in this thread. See especially the section from Paul in 1 Cor. 2:9-12 quoted at the end of my post and the quite natural, logical conclusion he makes from those inspired facts in verses 13-16, which I didn't quote. Simply stated, the man who is graciously indwelt by the Spirit of God in regeneration will believe the promises of God in Christ, be thus justified, and will show forth his faith by the works which the Father, whose workmanship he is, has 'before ordained that he should walk in them' as a functioning member of the body of Christ, following his Head (Eph. 2:10, and 4:11-16). Those indwelt by the Spirit of God are enabled to see and understand this, those not so indwelt think it ridiculous: 'For after that, in the widsom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that b