'Theology Discussion Group'

Subject: cloning revisited From: laz To: All Date Posted: Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 06:07:08 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If 'in sin' we are conceived ....as the Psalmist declares (Ps 51:5)... which suggests that we become 'persons' at conception, and therefore immediately inheriting Adam's guilt ...is it safe to say that the human soul (which is guilty and fit only for condemnation) is imparted at conception? I think most would say, 'Yes'. The soul is infused with the body at conception. Can someone then explain when does God infuse the soul of twins....who are the product of a single human cell (having now a soul) which then splits in two? Did God make two souls for that one cell...or does God impart the soul AFTER conception? laz

Subject: The Rapture From: postrib To: All Date Posted: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 22:00:16 (PST) Email Address: postrib@yahoo.com Message: Hi, Note that the scriptures don't say the rapture is before the tribulation, but 'after the tribulation' (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27), and that Christ's coming to gather us together will 'destroy' the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). I believe knowing this is important because if some Christians believe with all their heart that Jesus has promised them a rapture before the tribulation, and then it doesn't happen, how could this not but affect their faith and trust in Jesus? I believe that Jesus told us everything beforehand for a good reason, so that we would not be deceived and would not lose faith (Mark 13:23, Hosea 4:6), and that the pre-trib doctrine is setting the church up for great disappointment and confusion and the falling away from the faith (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-12, 2 Thessalonians 2:3). We must begin to face and get free of any fear of the tribulation (Revelation 2:10, 1 Peter 4:12-13, Hebrews 2:15, Luke 12:4, Philippians 1:21-23). May the Lord bless you. http://www.geocities.com/postrib/

Subject: Re: The Rapture From: Reformed SBC To: postrib Date Posted: Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 07:53:59 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amen postrib! Among the many other errors dispensationalism has spawned is the 'individual' mindset of the Chrisitian as opposed to God's corporate plan of redemption, and the retreat from the world isolationism of the Evangelical (i.e., why poilsh brass on a sinking ship?)

Subject: Traditional Text From: Reformed SBC To: All Date Posted: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 17:30:52 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone know of some good defenses online of the traditional text of the Bible, without the usual mindless, KJV only diatribes?

Subject: Re: Traditional Text From: saved To: Reformed SBC Date Posted: Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 09:50:58 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone know of some good defenses online of the traditional text of the Bible, without the usual mindless, KJV only diatribes? --- Try this link to the Trinitarian Bible Society Page. Some good articles here! Good links....TR Text easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~jbeggsoc/TTShome.html

Subject: Rapture and the Old Dispensation From: Chris Tippett To: All Date Posted: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:01:25 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brethren, I was reading about the Rapture in a Book by Charles Stanely and he noted something interesting by the Bible Knowledge Commentary...'Then the dead in Christ will be resurrected, that is , believers of this dispenstation(New) will be raised. Old Testament saints, it seems, will be raised at the end of the Great Tribulation(Daniel 12:2), for the phrase 'in Christ' usually refers exclusively to Church age saints. The bodies of the Dead in Christ will rise before the living Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air' I was under the Understanding that when Jesus Resurrected, that the Old Testament Saints went with Him to Heaven....and that the dead referring to not rising till after the Great Tribulation was referring to those who partake in the Second death....? What do you all think on this matter? Bro Chris

Subject: Re: Rapture and the Old Dispensation From: Rod To: Chris Tippett Date Posted: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:28:52 (PST) Email Address: na Message: Very briefly, as I am not going to be entering into a debate on this subject, here are one or two observations. Many feel that the OT saints will not be bodily resurrected at the same time those NT saints are, but later. The fact that Abraham and Sarah, Issac and Rebekah, Jacob and Leah (his first wife) were buried in a common tomb in that land and the fact that Joseph had his bones carried into the promised land at the Exodus is a strong indication that these all expected to be resurrected in that land, as did faithful Jews. That fact would not preclude the taking away of the spirits of the OT saints to be with the Lord, something which could be done without the resurrection of the body. (I don't know if it's germane or not, but I'm no fan of Chas. Stanley and don't know about this book or his eschatology.)

Subject: Re: Rapture and the Old Dispensation From: Pilgrim To: Chris Tippett Date Posted: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:24:28 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bro Chris, I hope the following article will meet 'navydrc's' requirements of being interesting? hehe Evaluating Premillennialism See #2 in the Table of Contents which deals specifically with the 'Rapture'. In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Rapture and the Old Dispensation From: navyrdc To: Chris Tippett Date Posted: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:43:49 (PST) Email Address: navyrdc@megsinet.net Message: You have no ideal what awaits you after that post :) This will be interesting as there are many different views on the end times here. navyrdc interesting didn't know stanely was dispensational though, will have to check that out.

Subject: Re: Rapture and the Old Dispensation From: Reformed SBC To: navyrdc Date Posted: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 13:47:52 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, there are many diff. positions, but the church knew nothing of the 'Left Behind' invisible rapture scenario until 180 years ago. And yes, Stanley is a classic dispensationalist a la Ryrie.

Subject: Perseverance of the Saints From: Tom To: All Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:30:12 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: A while ago someone(Pilgrim?) posted a link about scripture passages that Arminians use to try to disprove the 'Perseverance of the Saints'. Can someone re-post that link. I believe one of the passages it included was the parable of the sower. Tom

Subject: Re: Perseverance of the Saints From: saved To: Tom Date Posted: Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 13:19:35 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tom, see the first link on this list called 'Arminian Arguments' (dealing with all the five points)..etc. Maybe that is what you have in mind. Arminian Arguments....etc. www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3505/arminianism_refuted.html

Subject: Re: Perseverance of the Saints From: saved To: saved Date Posted: Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 13:50:30 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See point five of TULIP on perserverance. TULIP members.aol.com/cpcelkton/tulip.html

Subject: Re: Perseverance of the Saints From: Pilgrim To: Tom Date Posted: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:04:16 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tom, I'm not sure what you are referring to but here's one link that deals specifically with Perseverance of the Saints Perseverance of the Saints Did you try doing a search in this forum for what you are looking for? hehe In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Perseverance of the Saints From: Tom To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 13:58:22 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: Pilgrim I don't think that was the link, I was looking for a link that was more dirrected to Arminian proof texts. If I do find it I am going to have to bookmark it. I did do a search in this forum. However, for what ever reason I can not access any of the links to see if they are what I am looking for. When I click on the links, nothing happens after waiting quite a while. Tom

Subject: Re: Perseverance of the Saints From: Pilgrim To: Tom Date Posted: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:58:27 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tom, Sorry you are having problems with the links here! Sounds like something unique to you, as I have no problems with any of the links, and no one else has complained either. Try emptying your browser's 'cache' and try again. This should be something you do regularly if you don't already. I would suggest you look in the Theology Forum archive for last month if you think that the reference was made that recently. I'm assuming you know where they are located off the Home Page!? :-) In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Jews & Gentiles....Spiritual Jews? From: Chris Tippett To: All Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 17:40:41 (PST) Email Address: CEvanglst4@aol.com Message: Brethren, I have a question that has been discussed before, but has seemed to resurfice in my heart and mind....In Christ, is there any difference between Jew and Gentile. This dealing individually and not nationally....One passage of Scripture that I have been looking at is in Romans chapter 2:17-29....especially the latter part of these verses. In the Matthew Henry commentary, he deals with those latter verses dealing with us Christians...Now, my question is this, if we are one in Christ and there is no middle wall of Petition anymore, then why do we seem to be dividing ourselves in these latter days we are living in...such as some calling themselves 'Messianic Jews' or Jews for Jesus...??? All I know is that at Antioch, the disciples were starting to be called Christians, no matter whether you were a Jew by Nationality or Gentile...I do ask for some input by all who will Lovingly help in this matter...I do ask for Scripture and not Opinions:O) Thankyou:O)

Subject: Re: Jews & Gentiles....Spiritual Jews? From: Tom-E To: Chris Tippett Date Posted: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 14:50:23 (PST) Email Address: txm284@gateway.net Message: Dear Cris: You have an interesting question. Being in the Messianic movement I would ask you to think for yourself. Be objective and do some study into that period. The second Temple period is fascinating and loaded with information. Don’t just take the word of one source, check out opposing sources Jewish and Christian. You may find that some concepts you have are not accurate. You may reaffirm some other beliefs, either way if your interested that is where you will find your answers. It’s not how we understand the letter it’s how they understood the letter that can give us the most insight into the truth. Shalom Tom-E

Subject: Re: Jews & Gentiles....Spiritual Jews? From: Pilgrim To: Tom-E Date Posted: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 21:43:56 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tom E., And it is how erroneously the Jews historically have misunderstood, misused and corrupted the sacred Scriptures which is most interesting. Why anyone would opt for an understanding that was held by unregenerate people escapes me. By the time the Lord Christ appeared amongst His people, they had so twisted and misconstrued the Torah, that it caused the Lord of Glory no little anguish and disgust. Me thinks I'll stick to the perspicuity of the Old Testament Law and Prophets as taught by the ordained apostles and disciples of Christ thank you! :-) In His Grace, Pilgrim Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Subject: Re: Jews & Gentiles....Spiritual Jews? From: Tom-E To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 11:57:21 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Pilgrim: I’m not going to debate you and the anti-Jewish grid you see the scriptures through. In the past I have used historians as well as the text of scripture to prove that most of these men were Jews they held to Jewish tradition and they acted like Jews that had received the promised Messiah. Who himself was also was a traditional Jew. I listed sources and quotes from Martin Luther and others of the reform that are blatantly anti-Jewish. I Listed quotes from many of the early church fathers that were blatantly anti-Jewish. I pointed out how their theology could not help but reflect their anti-Jewish tendencies. I’m not going to play scripture poker with you. This last message you’ve posted once again exemplifies who you are. You are what your instructional sources made you. For you to be wrong means they are wrong and that is too much for you to bear. You hold to your traditions dearly and tell others that this is what the Apostles taught. I always monitor this site just to see what’s new in the reform world. When I read a post that I feel I can speak to with understanding and first hand knowledge, I try to help. I no longer get into endless debates with people who could really care less. It’s pointless! The truth is you know nothing about Judaism but feel free to comment on it. In most facets of life people are called dull when they make critical comments on subjects they lack understanding of. In this forum it’s not only condoned it has been commended. Tom-E

Subject: Re: Jews & Gentiles....Spiritual Jews? From: Pilgrim To: Tom-E Date Posted: Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 14:22:25 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TomE, What you have posted in the past was irrelevant to the unorthodoxy of your religion, which you blatantly and deceptively claim to be Christianity. It clearly is not! This assessment has absolutely NOTHING to do with your claim that I or others are labouring under an errant 'tradition' of anti-Semitism. What it does have to do with is our strong and unwavering submission to the biblical record. Indeed, you refuse to play 'scripture poker' with me or any other who holds to orthodox Christianity, for you know not the Scriptures and I fear neither do you know in an intimate way the Christ of whom they speak. Again, if anyone is blinded by a 'tradition' it is you sir; the tradition handed down by unbelieving Jews who among other things seek to be made right with the LORD God by a righteousness of their own and not that of sovereign and free grace. To be sure you are but one among hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, who name the name of Christ yet honor Him by lip-service only and not by submitting to Him and His teachings. Doubtless there have been men and women throughout the ages who have been guilty of harboring anti-Jewish sentiments. But their doctrines can certainly be scrutinized by others, not according to an alleged 'Jewish repository of truth' but by God's Holy, inerrant and infallible Word. My dependency is upon the Holy Spirit of God to open my eyes, mind and heart to the truth, and I need not look to 'Second Temple Judaism' as the key to that truth. The Lord Christ said that 'Moses and the Prophets' were sufficient to point to Him and the truth of salvation. And His ordained apostles and disciples lead us down the right road, many times castigating and rebuking the Jews and their idolatrous teachings along the way. Isa 8:20 'To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.' In His Sovereign Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Jews & Gentiles....Spiritual Jews? From: Rod To: Chris Tippett Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 00:04:07 (PST) Email Address: na Message: Chris, There is one way to be saved for today and that is to be in Christ where 'there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male not female; for all are one in Christ Jesus.' All are 'sons [who inherit] of God...hav[ing] put on Christ' (see Gal.26-29; cp. Col. 3:10-11). When the middle wall of partition was broken down, 'the two [were] made both one' on the basis of the enmity between them being destroyed by making 'of two one new man' and that 'in himself' (Eph. 2:14-18). The Church has Jews and Gentiles, male and female, bond and free, nationalities of distinction, but all are (as laz said) the heirs of promise. All have the standing of adopted adult sons who inhereit with the Lord Jesus according to God's eternal design in election (Rom. 8:14-17;29). There is to be no division among us for strife due to our physical circumstances; we are, indeed, brothers and sisters in the purest sense. In the final analysis, we are all 'brothers,' and our Lord Jesus is 'the firstborn among many brethren' (indicating status of those in Christ). As joint-heirs with Him, we all share a common inheritance and all look forward to glorification with Him. You are correct to cite Rom. 2:-28-29, focusing on the fact that those who 'fulfill the Law of Christ' (Gal. 6:2; cp. 5:14-15; John 13:34-35) by the fact and power of the indwelling Spirit are those who are 'Jews inwardly,' whose new hearts and spirits, made possible by the new birth, please God. Those who are truly of God are thus to avoid striving and enmity, divisions with other true children of God. And it isn't hard to do. If one realizes he is one in brotherhood with another brother or sister, he feels a natural warmth and affection for that person, in addition to to love from the will commanded by the Apostles and our Lord. There may be some doctrinal differences, some disputing, but there is genuine care and bearing of one another's burdens because of the common faith and Spirit of God we all share who are in Christ Jesus. Haven't you felt a genuine closeness to other Christians with whom you actually share little else in common? I know I have. I have dear brothers who are highly educated and others who haven't graduated from high school. We don't have the same hobbies or professions, but we are highly in tune with one another. The oneness we share in our status and love for the Lord Jesus is the only explanation. We are 'Jews inwardly' together by the grace of God.

Subject: Re: Jews & Gentiles/1Cor.7:17-24 From: Brother Bret To: Rod Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:29:22 (PST) Email Address: Lovitz5@juno.com Message: Thank you Chris, Laz and Rod. I have more food for thought :^ ). Would you agree that tha passage in 1Cor.7:17-24 includes staying with the culture wherewith we were called? 17)But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so i ordain in all the churches. 18) Was anyone called while circumcized? Let him not become uncircumcized. Was anyone called while uncircumcized? Let him not be circumcized. 19) Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 20) Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called. 21) were you called while a slave? Don't be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. 22) For he is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's freeman. Like wise he who is called while free is Christ's slave. 23) You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24) Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state is which he was called. The point I'm getting at is that if a Gentile is saved, he remains a gentile culturally. If a Jew is saved, he remains a Jew culturally. Nothing in God;s word mandates that we have to convert culturally, so long as that culture does not violate the word of God. Amen or Oh Me? Thanks. Look forward to your input as always :^ ) Brother Bret

Subject: Re: Jews & Gentiles/1Cor.7:17-24 From: Rod To: Brother Bret Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:04:01 (PST) Email Address: na Message: BB, That's what I was trying to get at when, after quoting Gal. 3:28, I said, 'The Church has Jews and Gentiles, male and female, bond and free, nationalities of distinction....' We retain aspects of our human identities and are individuals, though our position spiritually is one of equality and unity. We aren't to be absolutely static in our circumstances, but may seize opportunites from the Lord for earthly improvement, as your quotation proves. Furthermore, a Christian husband and wife are positionally equal, but 'the husband is head of the wife' (Eph. 5:23) by the command of God for reasons of order. So, I conclude we don't lose our individual identities, but God is not impressed with us, our nationalities, or what we 'make of ourselves.' God is no respecter of persons, nor does he expect us to adjust our attitudes on the basis of who one is. The Bible is clear on that in that we are to judge fairly and treat others as one who is in Christ ought: Lev. 19:15; Deut. 1:17; 2 Sam. 14:14; 2 Chron. 19:7; Prov. 24:23; 28:21; Eph. 6:9; Col 3:25; James 2:1,9; and 1 Peter 1:17.

Subject: Re: Jews & Gentiles....Spiritual Jews? From: laz To: Chris Tippett Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:56:55 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris - my opinion then the Bible. I believe that God's plan was ALWAYS for ONE people...and the NT emphatically supports this very thing. There will be only ONE body, ONE people, ONE bride of Christ....even though we have two dispensations...one of types and shadows...the other and better in real and fulfilled substance. Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Deut 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Which leads us to your... Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. blessings, laz

Subject: Human Clones From: saved To: All Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 09:23:44 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This year they are cloning a human being for the first time - a girl who passed away at ten months old...She will be born 'a second time physically' by Dec. of this year, they say. What about the doctrine that teaches that we die only once, and after that the soul faces judgement? Man is hell-bent, and set on trying to 'gain immortality' by his own efforts, it seems. How can it be the 'very same girl' that lived once before?

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: laz To: saved Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 10:52:21 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This year they are cloning a human being for the first time - a girl who passed away at ten months old...She will be born 'a second time physically' by Dec. of this year, they say. What about the doctrine that teaches that we die only once, and after that the soul faces judgement? Man is hell-bent, and set on trying to 'gain immortality' by his own efforts, it seems. How can it be the 'very same girl' that lived once before? --- Assuming they succeed...I don't think we'd really know with absolute certainty...but I do happen to think that the soul is something altogether different than the genetic material temporarily housing it. After all...aren't I just the byproduct of my parents? I'm NOT them....despite the genetic similarities. But then again...what do I know... laz

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: stan To: laz Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 12:56:24 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have raised the following time or two on other boards with no discussion. Will the child have a soul/spirit depending on whether you feel they are same or different? Many believe the soul is passed from dad and in this case will she have one or the same one that dad gave the first one? Some real questions for the theolog/ethisist! I have wondered if God will allow true human cloning to occur. Time will tell.

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: Pilgrim To: stan Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 13:36:57 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stan, You wrote: Will the child have a soul/spirit depending on whether you feel they are same or different? Many believe the soul is passed from dad and in this case will she have one or the same one that dad gave the first one? This view is called, Traducianism a theory of the origination of the soul. The fact is no Traducianist has been able to show if the soul is generated from the father, mother or both. Further, Traducianism is inextricably linked to the 'Realist Theory' of the imputation of guilt and sin from Adam, our first parent. I think both Traducianism and Realism are wrong. The reasons I reject Traducianism are as follows: 1) Does the soul of the child separate itself from the soul(s) of its parent(s)? This seems to contradict the simplicity of the soul. 2) In this theory, the pre-existence of the soul is at least implied. And if the soul is somehow 'resident' in the soul(s) of the parent(s), doesn't this then force one to conclude that the soul is a material substance, which it is clearly not. 3) It affirms the 'numerical unity' of the substance of all human souls, and thus has no answer to the fact that all men are held accountable as individuals for Adams first sin and not his further sins, nor for the sins of all their forebears. 4) If in Adam human nature as a whole sinned, and that sin was therefore the actual sin of every part of that human nature, then the conclusion cannot be escaped that the human nature of the Lord Christ was also sinful and guilty because it had actually sinned in Adam. Taking these problems into account with several others, I would hold that this 'clone' would not be the same person, in fact, it wouldn't be a person at all, for it is God alone who creates each and every individual soul which is 'wed' with the body He has foreordained for it and to be resident in until death. At the moment of death, the soul is then either present with the Lord or cast into hell to await the final judgment. Doubtless these attempts to clone human beings is an expression of a godless people who deem men as less than animals and but the product of 'chance' and corporeal substance only. In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: laz To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:33:14 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I gotta ask...you really think a human clone would not be a real human? I guess I don't really understand what all goes into cloning. laz

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: Tom To: laz Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 12:40:08 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: Laz Although I think cloning is morally and spiritually wrong. However, I would never say to a clone that they are not human. I may be wrong, but I don't think we can make that judgement of whether or not a human clone, is human or not. God can thwart(sp?) man's attempt at cloning if He wants to. Much the same way He did with the tower of Babel. But I say all that, based on just my limited knowledge of the issues. Tom

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: Pilgrim To: Tom Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 17:41:39 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Laz Although I think cloning is morally and spiritually wrong. However, I would never say to a clone that they are not human. I may be wrong, but I don't think we can make that judgement of whether or not a human clone, is human or not. God can thwart(sp?) man's attempt at cloning if He wants to. Much the same way He did with the tower of Babel. But I say all that, based on just my limited knowledge of the issues. Tom --- Tom, What is your definition of 'human'? Perhaps you could comment on God's creation of Adam as the first 'human' (cf. Gen 1:26, 27; 2:7). In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: Tom To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 14:25:16 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: Pilgrim I understand what you are getting at. A human is someone who is created by God, in His image. Perhaps, if I use an analogy, it will show you where I am coming from? If you were on a plane, and you were talking to the person beside you. The topic of cloning came up, and he disclosed to you that he was a clone. Would you tell him he wasn't a human? Personally, I am not sure how I would handle that. Other than just to tell him the gospel, and let God deal with that part. This is one of the reasons why I feel cloning is morally and spiritually wrong. It has a possibility of creating scenes like the analogy that I told you of. That is, if God willed it to happen. Perhaps, my analogy is faulty? Tom

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: Brother Bret To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:50:40 (PST) Email Address: Lovitz5@juno.com Message: Hi Gang: Mind-boggling stuff. Even for this amateur theologian :^ ). I figure that either: 1) God will not impart the human soul to these clones (if He even allows it to get that far) so that they will not live or will be some sort of soul-less zombies (an oxymoron, or perhaps could be demon-filled); or God in His grace in spite of man's foolishness could go ahead an impart the human soul to these clones. I DUNNO...JUST RAMBLING :-) BB

Subject: I think I got it... From: laz To: Brother Bret Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 20:17:50 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While we are all speculating...how about this. Since Adam in his perfection was created in God's image....but after the Fall he lost something (perhaps losing an aspect of being in 'God's image') ...might that 'something lost' be a 'proper' soul that relates to God as the regenerate NOW do...as Adam once did before his sin? Keep in mind that the unregenerate are born spiritually 'dead'....so in a manner of speaking, not having a 'proper' soul - and therefore lacking in something of vital/monumental importance! I'm going to be a dichotomist in this argument where the spirit and soul are somewhat synonomous. In otherwords, the clone will have the same 'improper/fallen/dead spirit/soul' as persons born today have and keep until they are regenerate. The clone would be 'dead' as I once was...no different. Therefore, only after regeneration will this clone have a 'proper' soul. laz

Subject: Re: I think I got it... From: Pilgrim To: laz Date Posted: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:29:47 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: laz, Nice try, but no cigar! hehe. . . When Adam fell, he lost nothing of his 'image'. This is the horror of the Fall and of fallen humanity. Adam's 'image', i.e., the image of God that he possessed when God created him, was not lost, but distorted; corrupted, tainted, effaced, etc., but NOT LOST! The fact that all men are still born as 'image bearers' of God is why they are under condemnation and not like animals who are not under condemnation. There was a 'relational' loss and a 'moral ability' loss, but no material, corporeal, or essence of being was lost at the Fall. :-) An old theologian once described the 'image of God' in man after the Fall this way: 'Take a quarter out of your pocket and lay that quarter on a railroad track. Wait for a train to run over it and then go and retrieve it. What does it look like in comparison to one that is normal? Nothing! The actually makeup of the two are identical, but the condition of the two are very much different. Both are still quarters in being, but one is useless for what it was originally designed for and thus no one will accept it as having any value whatsoever. . . .' This, I think, is a reasonable illustration of what happened to man's 'image' or 'soul' at and after the Fall! :-) I think Bret is on track here, when he wonders if God will impart a soul to this 'clone' at all, or if the Lord will even permit any success in the effort to make a clone. If a clone is given a soul, you can be sure it will be one that is no less at enmity with God and in need of regeneration. :-) What I was trying to get at above is that the combining of all the right 'ingredients' in a test tube or bowl, or whatever, shaking well and baking for an hour at 350º, does not a human make. This is just man's attempt to apply and accelerate the theory of evolution. Unless God imparts a 'soul', which only HE can do, then what they will 'succeed' at making is nothing more than an animal; a body of a human, without the 'image of God'/soul, which is what animals are by nature. In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: I think I got it... From: saved To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 11:01:16 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pilgrim, Maybe you both are right here! When I use to flatten pennies that way on a railroad track, I would say that the image on the coin was 'lost', because I could not see it anymore!...:-) So it is with mankind. God's image is lost because it is no longer visible in us, and that is why we need regenration by the holy Spirit of God alone!

Subject: Re: Well, maybe one ... From: stan To: Brother Bret Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:54:38 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: more question. If this clone is not a total human being, if she mates and produces offspring will they be normal persons? :-) Only a question based on fact - Dollie the sheep has had children! Does anyone know how this human cloning is being done? What process. stan

Subject: Re: Well, maybe one ... From: saved To: stan Date Posted: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 12:13:32 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The process is done by willing and chosen surrogate parents. Here is the article I just found today...(please remember that the love of money is still the root of all evil). 'Religious Group Plans to Clone Human Beings 11-Dec-2000 Sunday Times of London, Washington Post, Techo-Eugenics Email Newsletter - Members of the Raelian religion, which believes that human beings were created by extraterrestrial scientists, said they have begun trying to clone a ten-month-old girl who died earlier this year. The parents of the dead girl, who wish to remain anonymous, have given the human cloning company Clonaid, which is controlled by the religious group, a million dollars to clone their dead daughter. The Sunday Times of London reports that the 'project is carried out in a secret laboratory' in Nevada and that 'scientists involved hope their baby will be born towards the end of next year.' Clonaid has employed four scientists, who are working with 50 female volunteers, who have offered to be egg donors and surrogate mothers. The Clonaid website, www.clonaid.com, states that, 'This service offers a fantastic opportunity to parents with fertility problems or homosexuals.' They plan to charge approximately $20,000 for the service in the future. The Rael religion says it has 55,000 members in 84 countries. Their website is www.rael.org. The Washington Post quoted scientists Lee Silver, from Princeton University, and Michael West, who works in advanced cell technology, as saying that it is now technically possible to clone a human being. According to George Siedel, an expert on cloning from Colorado State University, 'It’s a numbers game. It’s very likely that if you did it enough times you could make it work.' Sources: Sunday Times of London, Washington Post, Techo- Eugenics Email Newsletter --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- It looks like the first attempt may not be successful, so they will just keep trying until it works. Will this 'new person' have the same soul as the former girl had, that is the question. Will this new person have a 'second chance' to hear the gospel and be saved?

Subject: Re: Well, maybe one ... From: stan To: saved Date Posted: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 15:02:09 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the article. This seems to be the same process that the sheep folks used - removing the nucleus of a donor cell and replaceing it with the nuc. of the one to be cloned. They then SHOCK it - not bake it ;-) for whatever purpose. Not really cloning as it was originally set forth years ago, just messing with cells.

Subject: Cloning - another False Gospel From: saved To: stan Date Posted: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 08:19:21 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From this brief article we can see that cloning is just another false gospel, promoted by another satanic cult to deceive millions! =========================================== Why should one fear this discovery which, in a few years, will be able to eliminate all our fears, the greatest of which being the fear of death ? What are we afraid of ? That our children be born abnormal, to die in an accident, to lose our health with old age, and finally to die after a too short life without having been able to accomplish ourselves. Which parent has not been afraid, even for only a few minutes, that the child to be born be abnormal ? Who is not sensitive to the tragedy of those children who, even though their genetic codes are normal, suffer throughout lives for an accident that happened at birth and whose brain had lacked oxygen ? Children like that, I have seen them by the dozens, and there are thousands around the world in rehabilitation centres, confined in a handicapped body for life, while their consciousness is intact. I saw them trembling of rage, as their body’s violent muscular contractions and spasms prevented them from simply walking or speaking. For them and their parents, cloning is the means to erase the mistake at birth, and to give back a healthy body to those consciousnesses, to those human beings who did not have any hope until now. To be born again in a healthy body is their dearest dream, who can dare refuse it to them? Who, when seeing senile people, did not feel the anguish of asking themselves 'will I be like them one day?' or 'will I end up in an old dears' home waiting for the nurse to clean me from the piss I am bathing in?' Or more simply, who did not fear to see their mental faculties weaken to the point that their lives become mere survival ? A remission before the final outcome of a life too short to have been fully accomplished. Cloning is the starting point for a new youth, until we are able to transfer our memory into a new body which is us, and which vibrates with life. This will happen in a few years if we let scientists work towards life instead of using millions of dollars to lure them towards increasingly insane research into military means of destruction. What are we choosing ? life, youth, which can be eternal, or the military destruction of our planet ? This fear of cloning can only be due to ignorance. Otherwise, why be afraid of what will eliminate the fear of death ? Death will then be no more than a moment of sleep before the rebirth in a new body. Cloning is the gospels’ good news, carried out right here on earth. Is there better news than that ? Jesus had come to bring us hope for an eternal life. Rael, in creating Clonaid, is showing us the path towards making that dream come true. Thank you Elohim, for having given us life, and for sending the Prophets to guide us towards a life of eternal youth and consciousness. François (Montreal, Quebec, Canada) ===================================== Do not believe a word of this! It is easy to see that this is satanic, and is out to deceive millions! It has the appearance of 'doing good' - just as humanism has the outward appearnace of trying to 'do good' to mankind in general, but is a false doctrine. Eternal life only comes by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ alone said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life! saved

Subject: Re: Well, maybe one ... From: saved To: stan Date Posted: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:55:13 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.humancloning.org/ Here is another link for you. It is clear that this is being promoted by a cult (and is another false 'gospel'), and as true believers, we should be made aware what is going on. We should have our answers ready as to why we are against this! saved

Subject: What would Paul say? From: saved To: saved Date Posted: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 11:10:49 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the apostle Paul would say (about cloning) is 'Beware of science - falsely so called'...or something like that. Even if they are successful at this, it will not change the way we obtain eternal life by faith alone, by Christ alone, by grace alone, and by the Word of God alone (plus nothing).

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: Pilgrim To: laz Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:20:58 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: laz, My definition of a 'human' is a creature created in the 'image of God' consisting of body and soul. The 'flesh' alone does not a human make. In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: stan To: laz Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:52:25 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The original thought of clones as I understand is to take a cell or sample of an existing person and grow a duplicate. In the case sighted it may be that but I doubt it. The clones of animals I think is something different than this. Now much of my knowledge is based on those old clone movies of the 50's so don't quote me too much ;-)

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: stan To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 19:40:06 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1) Does the soul of the child separate itself from the soul(s) of its parent(s)? This seems to contradict the simplicity of the soul. No, I think they hold that the soul is generated by God but comes via dad and gets tainted on the way or something like that. 2) In this theory, the pre-existence of the soul is at least implied. And if the soul is somehow 'resident' in the soul(s) of the parent(s), doesn't this then force one to conclude that the soul is a material substance, which it is clearly not. no and your second is based on a wrong impression ;-) 3) It affirms the 'numerical unity' of the substance of all human souls, and thus has no answer to the fact that all men are held accountable as individuals for Adams first sin and not his further sins, nor for the sins of all their forebears. Not what they teach don't think. 4) If in Adam human nature as a whole sinned, and that sin was therefore the actual sin of every part of that human nature, then the conclusion cannot be escaped that the human nature of the Lord Christ was also sinful and guilty because it had actually sinned in Adam. Nope, that is why of the virgin birth - remember - no daddy of sinful sort ;-) Taking these problems into account with several others, I would hold that this 'clone' would not be the same person, in fact, it wouldn't be a person at all, for it is God alone who creates each and every individual soul which is 'wed' with the body He has foreordained for it and to be resident in until death. At the moment of death, the soul is then either present with the Lord or cast into hell to await the final judgment. And what is a non person? Is that person going to be as Adam if there is not transmitted sin nature, is the person going to be more corrupt than the lost of normal stature (assuming there is no inner consciousness of God - that is if you believe in that ;-) ? Doubtless these attempts to clone human beings is an expression of a godless people who deem men as less than animals and but the product of 'chance' and corporeal substance only. Speaking of men less than animals, did you know (here anyway) that if a dog attacks a police dog it is saving a life of an officer if you kill the attacking dog? Also in a court here they are changing the thought of pets being property and giving them people rights - may not call it that, but that is the end result of what they are up to :-( is this country sick or not? Actually don't want to discuss the traducian thing, just boggles my mind to consider the ramifications - kind of like thinking about what would be here if creation hadn't happened ;-) I know, I have too much time on my hands.

Subject: Re: Human Clones From: PIlgrim To: stan Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 23:31:13 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stan, The short of this is that any attempt to skirt around the issue of the origination of the soul being DIRECTLY from God as a new creation, then it is a form of Traducianism. Mediated soul transference doesn't cut the mustard and all the problems I stated above are applicable to one degree or another. Take for example #1 that the soul is 'somehow tainted' due to its being allegedly implanted in the father. Thus Adam's sin is excluded! So what sin(s) is the child guilty of? or is there any guilt imputed and corruption inherited at birth at all? These type of issues may give you headaches, but that is what us 'theologians' do for a living.. LOL In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Cloning Jesus Christ From: saved To: PIlgrim Date Posted: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 07:37:16 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just found this on another forum, so will add it here for all those interested... 'A group of scientists in California are actually planning to clone Jesus Christ! They are apparently very serious about their project called the 'Second Coming Project'. They even have a web site up that explains why they are planning this and how they will accomplish it. I am not a religious person, but this whole thing sounds excessively dangerous to me. Assuming they are able to effect a clone, there is absolutely no assurrance that the DNA they use will be the DNA of the historical Jesus. Even if it were his DNA, the cloned product would not be Jesus Christ. It would be only biologically similar. It is my opinion that should such a cloning take place--regardless of the actual identity of the DNA used--there are millions of mindless idiots already populating the planet who would bow down in worship of this kid. If the Bible is accurrate and to be believed, the real Jesus Christ is not dead. Therefore, this cloned kid would be an antichrist and those who worshipped him would be worshipping a false Christ. Just imagine the situation if the cloning takes place and is successful, and then the real Jesus actually returns to earth. I think he would be really ticked off with the scientists, the clone, and the idiots bowing down to the clone. The group of scientists is negotiating with the Catholic Church to obtain some DNA from some of the relics of 'Christ's blood' the church has laid claim to for centuries. Those relics have always been more than suspect. But, if the Catholic Church provides the requested relics for DNA extraction, they would likely lay claim to the kid as well. This could turn into the greatest money-maker since the selling of Absolution! Backed by the status of state-hood within the U.N. (the only religion to have such status), this claim of having brought about the 'Second Coming of Christ' would be a very big stick to wield against all who refused to believe in it...'

Subject: Re: Look for Namesagame From: LUMICAH To: LUMICAH Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 08:10:44 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Looks like I hit the wrong button the first time. Sorry. I chatted with someone calling themselves 'NAMESAGAME' when I responded to the article about the nude, female, black Jesus in a picture of the Lord's Supper. It is displayed by a New York museum. There were many comments, mostly objecting as I did, but not as in-depth. Finally, Namesagame began 'chatting' with me. My lengthy response (which included sharing the Romans Road) disappeared twice for one of those computer unknown mysteries. I finally told the person how to find this website, saying that you were very learned and would be glad to respond. This person believes in God but not Jesus. I know if they do find this website you will speak the Truth in love and gentleness. I will also be watching for him/her. Blessings........ I was here frequently in the past under my own name. (this new name popped up on my news article response...another mystery to me!!!)

Subject: Marriage Resources From: Tom To: All Date Posted: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 14:07:34 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: Can anyone recommend some good marriage resources that promote strengthening marriages? (on line or off line) Preferably maturial that both the husband and wife can study together. Hopefully maturial that is easy to understand by most lay people. Tom

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: Laz To: Tom Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:12:19 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tom - 'The Excellent Wife' is a great book....by Martha Peace. It's for your wife to read....very easy and lots of illustrations to help explain certain concepts. Also has a very reformed flavor. blessings, laz

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: Five Sola To: Tom Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:18:32 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would have to recomend (much to the disaproval of pilgrim :-) ) 'Reforming Marriage' by Douglas Wilson. There are a few things I disagree how far he takes it but overall I think it is a good work. It does deal with husband and wife but primarily with husbands since that is usually were most of the work is needed. We as husbands tend to cast off our responsibilites and thus need a good 'slap across the face' to wake us up. It definately helped me see how much I was takin my roles and responsibilities lightly and how much I was abdicating to my wife instead of being obedient to Scripture and loveing her sacrificially. (His wife writes one that deals with wives roles in marriage that fills in some of the gaps Douglas does not deal with in his book, but it is not necessary unless you are haveing separate studies for women and men.) By His Grace Alone, Five Sola

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: laz To: Five Sola Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:10:15 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HAHAHA! You will now incur Pilgrim's wrath for your blasphemy!! LOL! Actually, I too liked that book and Nancy's.... I read Jay's Adam's book which Pilgrim recommended (we had to read it as part of our Church's evening service/study) and did find Jay's tone (as did my wife who's no feminist) very condescending in parts. I was reluctant to give this book away to my nominally believing family since those condescending parts would certainly be a major turn off. But overall, great book. Actually, I did send my oldest brother a copy....I think he's divorced now. Hahahaha! blessings, laz

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: Five Sola To: laz Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:15:20 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Laz, :-) I have also read Jay Adam's book. It was given to me in the context of a family worship, discipline of children, etc. I enjoyed it and ultimately bought it. I didn't sense the tone that you suggest but my wife has not read it,yet; and that also might be due to the reason I approached it I saw it in a different light. Five Sola

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: Pilgrim To: Tom Date Posted: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 14:30:49 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tom, The following are somet books which I know you will find helpful. They are listed according to my personal preference: EXCELLENT Three to Get Ready - Howard Eyrich (Presbyterian & Reformed) Christian Living in the Home - Jay Adams (Presbyterian & Reformed) GOOD Marriage in Honor - W.G. DeVries (Paidea Press) Marriage: The Mystery of Christ and the Church - David Engelsma (Reformed Free Publishing) DECENT Reconcilable Differences - Jim Talley (Nelson) In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: laz To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:05:08 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WHAT, NO DOUG WILSON BOOKS?!?!?! LOL!! blessings, laz

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: Pilgrim To: laz Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:09:36 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: laz, One doesn't have to jump into the sewer to find out if it stinks! :-) Wilson's book is far more destructive and unbiblical than instructive, especially for someone who is going through a difficult marriage as it is. I would ask you personally NOT to recommend that book here again, please? :-) If you are convinced it is a worthwhile book, then recommend it privately. In His Grace, Pilgrim

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: laz To: Pilgrim Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 07:51:14 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK...I can take a hint. Your wish is my command.... Sorry... blessings, laz

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: Tom To: laz Date Posted: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:29:16 (PST) Email Address: thardy@sd52.bc.ca Message: Anyone heard about Christian Marriage: Audio Series by R.C Sproul, and if so would you recommend it? Tom

Subject: Re: Marriage Resources From: Linda To: Tom Date Posted: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:06:23 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I gave it to our son and his wife. They liked it, but I haven't listened. Of course, I am a big fan of R.C. Sproul and think he does a great job. His conferences are extremely worthwhile, and I've attended each when he's in our area. He and Dr. James Boice were close friends and on committees together, including the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals..........but you all probably know all that. (

Subject: Post contains offensive language. From: Eric To: All Date Posted: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 08:46:10 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What is the biblical basis for Christians not 'swearing'? Obviously we are not to take the Lord's name in vain, but where do we find commandments to avoid certain words. Why is it acceptable to say 'dung' or 'poop' but not sh**? Can I call somebody a wimp, but not a pu**y? I could go on with more examples, but you should get the point. ISTM that prohibitions against certain words speak to the letter of the law, but not the spirit. God bless.

Subject: Re: Post contains offensive language. From: Pilgrim To: Eric Date Posted: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 12:37:08 (PST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Eric, Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place to find your answer in God's Word? :-) Sometimes we err in thinking that the Bible was written like an encyclopedia or dictionary rather than the revelation of God. Getting beyond the use of individual words, consider the Lord's words: Matt 22:36 'Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.' Doubtless this is one of the most succinct summaries of the 'spirit of the law' ever spoken; and by the Law-giver Himself. Is calling someone a derogatory name or referring to someone by using a slanderous appellation fulfilling the law? The apostle James wrote: 'Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.' (Jam 1:21) and again, 'If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.' (v. 26) And further he admonishes and warns: Jas 2:8 'If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.' And finally James makes it very clear that such things are not consistent with the profession of faith: Jas 3:8 'But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.' In the m