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#11322
Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:10 AM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,355 Likes: 52
Head Honcho
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Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,355 Likes: 52 |
Some maintain that not being born of the flesh or the will of man means that we are not born again by ‘making a decision.’ Well yes, true, it is not a ‘decision’ that has any power, but believing from the heart the word of the truth of the gospel.
What is clear here is that the receiving is what precedes becoming a child, and thus being born of God.
But what of ‘who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man’? Being born of God is put in distinction to Jewish natural birth and becoming a Jew through proselytisation. Allow me to quote from John Lightfoot:
"Of the will of man, in that sense wherein they coveted so many proselytes, to admit them into the religion of the Jews, and so into covenant and sonship with God." A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica John Lightfoot. Well, thanks for the effort to exegete the text (Jh 1:12, 13). But let's not throw out Greek/English grammar nor common sense when doing exegesis. Let's take a closer look at this passage with these things included. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> " who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." In both English and Greek grammar, "who" (English)/"hos" (Greek) is a relative pronoun; it refers back to something that preceded it and qualifies that item. In this passage, the "who" refers back to " But as many as received him" and " even to them that believe on his name". Thus, grammatically, the sentence must read, "Those who were born of God received Him or believed on His name to whom was given the right/power to become children of God. Again, it is clear that the "born of God" was antecedent and the proximate cause of the receiving/believing. This is the "new birth" which the Lord Christ spoke to Nicodemus about (Jh 3:3, 5) and without which a person cannot even see the kingdom of God. It is also that "birth" which is produced by the sovereign and secret work of the Holy Spirit (Jh 3:7, 8) which man has no part nor does a man experience. If it would help, I can illustrate this fact into another situation for you? "All who came to the gate and sought entrance into the stadium were allowed through, who had not begged, tried to bribe the security guard or threatened force, but had been issued free passes." Those who were allowed through had previously received free passes before their requesting entry. However, logic alone should be sufficient to correctly understand the truth that this text teaches, i.e., one is regenerated antecedently to faith. If one makes faith antecedent to regeneration, then the text would have to read, "All who received Him did not become born by inheritance, one's own choosing or by a pronouncement of another, but of God." This is nothing more than "non-sense". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Lightfoot's comments are irrelevant to the issue at hand. Moving on to Eph 2:1-10: You said: This quickening is through faith, as seen in Colossians: Hmmmm, that isn't much of an exegesis of the Ephesians passage is it? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> What should be noted first is that the subject and predicate of this long sentence actually doesn't appear until verse 5. Evidently for the sake of the reader, the translators in near every version include them in the first verse, but most always with a notation and/or in italic. The plain reading of the text, verse 5, says: " even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive". Paul didn't write, "when we were critically ill, we took the medicine which God gave us and therefore we got well." He wrote, while we were dead, God recreated us. He didn't write, "when we were drowning and going down for the 3rd time, we grabbed the life-ring God tossed us, and thus we saved ourselves with God's help". And this is why, no doubt, Paul kept the subject and predicate of the sentence until last. For in the first four verses he compounds the deplorable and helpless condition of the human soul and the hopelessness which it is found by nature. It is the Triune God who looked upon helpless sinners and saved them on a three-fold basis; love, mercy and grace. I won't pontificate on this incredible statement here, however. But what is to be seen is that Paul reflects back on the believer's condition, including Paul himself here, (cf. "we" hemas), which was totally alien to God and all that was good; especially the Lord Christ. It was while they were hating God, being spiritually dead (cf. Eph 4:17-19; Rom 3:10-18; et al) that God "made us alive together with" Christ,(Gk: suzoopoieo). The word in the Greek for "made alive" is suzoopoieo; i.e., to bring to life conjointly with. The reference is unmistakable. As Christ was raised from the dead in which He suffered for punishment of sins, vicariously and substitutionally, likewise did God raise us up from the dead, through our own trespasses and sins. This is regeneration. In verse 6, Paul uses a similar analogy when he says that we are "raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus", referring to the life lived after that resurrection both actually and positionally. " by grace have ye been saved" needs little comment, IMHO. It is by God's grace that the sinner is delivered from the power, presence and penalty of sin, i.e., judgment, condemnation which Paul already mentioned in v. 3. And, additionally, grace bestows immeasurable blessings, both presently and for the eternal age to come. This salvation is by grace; the proximate cause and through faith; the instrumental cause. The "making alive" was antecedent to the salvation. Regeneration has no power to save; it is through/by faith that salvation is secured. One is justified by faith not regenerated by faith. Regeneration is that new spiritual life out of which faith comes. Dead men don't believe. Lazarus didn't first ask Christ to make him alive before He said, "Lazarus! come forth!". He was dead 4 days before the Lord arrived and surely his body had already begun decomposing. It is the life-giving call of God that brings dead sinners to life and who then, having the ability to do so, repent and believe. Thus the ordo solutis is: predestination, election, calling, regeneration, faith, justification, sanctification and final glorification. [color:"purple"]Sola Gratia[/color]In His Grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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Entire Thread
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Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:23 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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gotribe
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Anonymous
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fredman
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Anonymous
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fredman
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Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:18 AM
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MarieP
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Anonymous
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MarieP
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fredman
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:24 PM
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:45 PM
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Pilgrim
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:54 PM
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Ruth
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:17 PM
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Anonymous
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Ruth
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Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:04 AM
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Lynda
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Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:38 AM
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:31 PM
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Tom
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:37 PM
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:31 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:17 PM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:50 PM
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4Ever_Learning
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:25 PM
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4Ever_Learning
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:55 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:10 PM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:35 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:23 PM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:32 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:24 PM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:31 PM
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:52 AM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:08 PM
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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CovenantInBlood
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:10 AM
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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fredman
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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fredman
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Anonymous
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fredman
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Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:31 AM
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:44 AM
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grace2U
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:57 PM
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grace2U
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:57 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:38 PM
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grace2U
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Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:16 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:50 AM
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grace2U
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Sun Apr 04, 2004 7:31 AM
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janean
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Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:23 PM
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:04 PM
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One more thing
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Anonymous
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Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:16 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:36 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:42 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Ruth
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:59 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:53 PM
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Pilgrim
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:21 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:16 PM
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Anonymous
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:36 PM
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gotribe
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:10 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:23 PM
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Anonymous
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Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:39 AM
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fredman
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Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:18 AM
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focusing on Faith
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Anonymous
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Re: focusing on Faith
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Cranmer
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Pilgrim
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Cranmer
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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RefDoc
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Anonymous
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RefDoc
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Anonymous
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RefDoc
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Anonymous
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grace2U
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fredman
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Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:28 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:32 PM
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Wes
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Anonymous
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CovenantInBlood
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Anonymous
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CovenantInBlood
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:56 PM
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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MarieP
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Pilgrim
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MarieP
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Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:19 AM
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Pilgrim
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Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:43 AM
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MarieP
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Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:58 AM
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Pilgrim
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Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:10 AM
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4Ever_Learning
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:18 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Bladestunner316
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Anonymous
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Henry
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Wes
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Bladestunner316
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Bladestunner316
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Pilgrim
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Bladestunner316
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Bladestunner316
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Pilgrim
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Bladestunner316
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Pilgrim
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Bladestunner316
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Anonymous
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janean
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:42 PM
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Pilgrim
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janean
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:59 PM
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Pilgrim
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:36 PM
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janean
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Pilgrim
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:35 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:27 AM
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Tom
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:31 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:16 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:10 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:22 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:58 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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chestnutmare
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:54 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:15 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:41 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:14 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:41 PM
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YES!
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J_Edwards
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Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:35 AM
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Re: YES!
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Tom
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Thu Apr 01, 2004 5:44 AM
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Re: YES!
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J_Edwards
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Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:04 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Tom
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Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:21 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:38 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:04 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:13 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:19 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:28 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:40 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:01 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:12 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:30 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:16 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:28 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:49 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:14 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:26 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:48 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:35 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:25 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:02 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:17 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:30 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:41 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Tom
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Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:47 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:48 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:31 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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chestnutmare
|
Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:18 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
|
Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:22 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:25 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Robert B Foster
|
Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:40 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:24 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Robert B Foster
|
Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:51 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Greg Bowman
|
Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:36 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:07 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:23 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:40 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:18 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:29 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:34 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:46 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:14 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:29 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:44 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Tom
|
Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:47 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Tom
|
Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:58 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:41 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:18 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:40 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
chestnutmare
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:27 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:15 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:49 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:57 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:54 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:08 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:26 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:41 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:45 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:47 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Robert B Foster
|
Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:03 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
042Dave
|
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:35 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
brightfame52
|
Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:55 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:41 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
brightfame52
|
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:34 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Pilgrim
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:05 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Tom
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:53 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:56 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:16 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:55 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:52 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:04 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:41 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:32 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:28 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:20 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:17 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:26 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:31 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Andy
|
Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:29 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:57 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
godrulez
|
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:18 PM
|
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