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ZionSeeker lamented:
Yes, but it refers back to those who had received authority to become children of God. They became children of God, and now, John is telling us, they were born not of man but of God.
What is absurd? Is following proper English and Greek grammar absurd? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> The relative clause indeed refers back to "those who received him . . .those who believed on his name . . . who were given the right/authority to become children of God" and being a relative clause it modifies those phrases so that grammatically, the text must read, "Those who were born of God, received him, believed upon his name and were thus given the right to be come children of God." [Linked Image]

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According to your way of looking at this, they were born, than they received, than they became children. This is absurd. Well more later
Yes, exactly.. an individual is first born. It is impossible for a person to receive/believe and then to become a child until it is first born. Is this absurd? Are you seriously suggesting that a human being (using the Lord Christ's analogy when He spoke to Nicodemus) must first receive, believe on Christ in order to be born so that they can become children? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> Jesus told him that it was necessary that he be born from above (again) before he could even see the kingdom of God. The Lord even explained that this new birth was something totally alien to man. It is the silent, secret and sovereign work of the Holy Spirit Who does this as He will. Thus man does not initiate the process by first repenting and/or exercising faith.

As I said in my very first reply to you, this matter of the order of regeneration and faith is immutably joined with and dependent upon the doctrine of the Fall and its consequences. If one holds that man did not "die" as God had threatened and promised Adam upon his disobedience, but only became terminally ill, sick or something other than experiencing "death", the I suppose you could postulate most anything. And all such postulating involves a "works" salvation, where man initiates the first move and God responds. Thus is what you are proposing, that man brings his own faith to the table, and God responds by making him alive. Rome is smiling upon you if this is what you are proposing, and it surely seems like you are.

Thus, we need to digress it seems and discuss the noetic effects of the Fall. If this is agreeable to you, then would you please start a new thread as this one is getting rather long. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If you aren't sure how to do that, post the question in the HELP Forum below or just send me or one of the other Administrators/Moderators a PM.

As an aside, I believe you were wondering how to do the "quote" thing too, right? That's more than simple. When you click on either "Post", "Reply" or "Edit" and the new window opens, just below the textbox where you type in your message, there are two tables: "Graemlins" and "Advanced UBBT Code". In the latter, just click on the little arrow to the right of "Quote/Code" and click on "Quote". A small textbox will popup where you can either type or paste whatever you want to quote. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

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simul iustus et peccator

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