Thanks for the tips pilgrim. i'll try the quote thingy. I hope to get back to you some time soon. I might be busy over the next few days but I would like to carry on with this post though. I can't consider the Fall unless those clear texts have been dealt with which clearly show that receiving life (being quickened) is a result of believing. About the "absurd" thing (sorry for using such a strong word)....those being spoken of do not become children until they first believe. if they are not children before they believe (or "receive him"), than they cannot be born. Then the order would have to be believe, become children. if you're view was right, it would read, "who had been born," not "who were born." You become a child when you are born. Therefore when it says "who were born," it must be speaking of their becoming children, not their receiving. They received, they became children. AS CHILDREN, they were born of God and not man. talk to you later