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#11334
Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,355 Likes: 52
Head Honcho
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Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,355 Likes: 52 |
ZionSeeker caustically remarked: The relative clause certainly modifies something. If it modified what was antecedent to receiving, it would be pluperfect. no offence, but can you actually read Greek unaided, because i am having a hard time believing that? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> Let me only say in regard to your ad hominem slur, that if you are asking if I need a walker to read Greek, the answer is no. Doubtless, I have forgotten more from my many years of Greek study than you have learned in your one semester study. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Let me offer you something to ponder as you learn Koine Greek: The Aorist for the (English) Pluperfect. The Aorist Indicative is frequently used in narrative passages of a past event which precedes another past event mentioned or implied in the context. In English it is common in such a case to indicate the real order of the events by the use of a Pluperfect for the earlier event. HA. 837; G.MT. 58; B. pp. 199f. [Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in New Testament Greek, Ernest De Witt Burton, p. 23.]
The difference between the English Pluperfect and the Greek Pluperfect:
English Pluperfect: is used to mark the fact that the event expressed by it preceded another past event indicated by the context, and this whether the earlier event is thought of as completed at the time of the later event, or only indefinitely as a simple occurrence preceding the later event.
Greek Pluperfect: is used to represent an action as standing complete, i.e., has having an existing result, at a point of past time indicated by the context. [Ibid p. 24 And just as an aside, which for me looking back I can now <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The book from which the quotes above were taken was part of an advanced Greek course I took at one of the seminaries I studied at. It was a requirement of the professor of that course, that this book be memorized. Thanks for making those grueling hours of memorization meaningful, albeit 25 years after the fact. ZionSeeker continues: But this very passage in Colossians, as I have pointed out many many times, shows that the quickening is through FAITH: BTW, the address of that passage is v. 12, not 2. The context of this passage is that of Paul arguing against the syncretism of the Judaisers, who taught an admixture of Christianity, Judaism and Paganism. In the immediate context, he is addressing their Judaistic imposition in that they insisted that Christians needed to be physically circumcised. But Paul argues that the circumcision which the believers at Colossae received was far superior in that it was of the heart, which was made "without hands", accomplished the putting off and casting away of their entire evil nature, in its sanctifying aspect to be progressively realized, and it signified an actual union with Christ, Himself. The "having been raised with Him through faith" is addressing not regeneration as you suppose but the believer's identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for their justification (burial) and sanctification (resurrection), so that all the benefits of Christ's substitutionary atonement for them was bestowed upon them the moment they believed; in the operative power of God Who raised Him from the dead). In verse 13, Paul exalts the sovereignty of God's grace Who took them (referring to the Colossae believers) when they were pagans, people who had no interest, desire in God, indeed without the ability to do so, never mind exercise faith which results from one's predisposition, and made them alive suzoopoieo with Christ. Here, both regeneration and the life of faith which results from that regeneration are in view. For he adds, having forgiven us all our trespasses; having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;. Thus, there is no evidence here that regeneration follows faith, but to the contrary, regeneration produces faith which apprehends Christ and thus justification and sanctification. And you further state: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31
if believing is required to have life, why do you deny it? this is a simple question, but you won't come to terms with it. dead means unable to have fellowship with God, or to know God. it means the spiritual part of man which contacts God is dead. when a person believes, they receive new life. you cannot get around this verse. regeneration purifies the heart, but the bible says that faith purifies the heart. you cannot dance around these scriptures at will. [note the Greek, please] But these are written in order that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and in order that believing you may continue to have life in His name.This text is NOT addressing regeneration, but that life which was already received; i.e., justification and sanctification. Exegete the text... don't eisogete it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" /> another text you quote: "And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." Peter likewise is speaking of the "purification of the heart", which is justification. There is not even a hint here that he was referring to the Gentile's regeneration. And you conclude with: any philosophy which contradicts these plain scriptures must be wrong, however reasonable and good it sounds Agreed! And this is especially true when the philosophy isn't reasonable and sounds bad. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> In His Grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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Entire Thread
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Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:23 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
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Pilgrim
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gotribe
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fredman
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Anonymous
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fredman
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MarieP
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Anonymous
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MarieP
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fredman
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Cranmer
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Pilgrim
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Ruth
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Anonymous
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Ruth
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Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:04 AM
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Lynda
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Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:38 AM
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:31 PM
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Tom
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:37 PM
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:31 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:17 PM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:50 PM
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4Ever_Learning
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:25 PM
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4Ever_Learning
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:55 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:10 PM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:35 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:23 PM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:32 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:24 PM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:31 PM
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:52 AM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:08 PM
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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CovenantInBlood
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:10 AM
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:24 PM
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Pilgrim
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Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:27 AM
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Anonymous
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fredman
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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fredman
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Anonymous
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fredman
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Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:31 AM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:01 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:01 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:01 PM
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Pilgrim
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Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:37 PM
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Anonymous
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Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:44 AM
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grace2U
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Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:50 AM
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:38 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:57 PM
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grace2U
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:57 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:38 PM
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grace2U
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Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:16 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:50 AM
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grace2U
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Sun Apr 04, 2004 7:31 AM
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janean
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Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:23 PM
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:04 PM
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One more thing
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Anonymous
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Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:16 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:36 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:42 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Ruth
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:53 PM
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Pilgrim
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:21 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:36 PM
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gotribe
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:10 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:52 PM
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Anonymous
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Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:39 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:39 AM
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fredman
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Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:18 AM
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focusing on Faith
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Anonymous
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Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:18 AM
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Re: focusing on Faith
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Cranmer
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Pilgrim
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Cranmer
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:10 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:51 PM
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Anonymous
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RefDoc
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Anonymous
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RefDoc
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Anonymous
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RefDoc
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Anonymous
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grace2U
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Sat Apr 03, 2004 6:12 AM
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fredman
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Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:28 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:32 PM
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Wes
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Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:40 PM
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Anonymous
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CovenantInBlood
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Anonymous
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CovenantInBlood
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:29 PM
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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MarieP
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Pilgrim
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MarieP
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Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:19 AM
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Pilgrim
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MarieP
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Pilgrim
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4Ever_Learning
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Pilgrim
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Bladestunner316
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Anonymous
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Henry
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Wes
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Bladestunner316
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Bladestunner316
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Pilgrim
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Bladestunner316
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Bladestunner316
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Pilgrim
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Bladestunner316
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Pilgrim
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Bladestunner316
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Anonymous
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janean
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:42 PM
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Pilgrim
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janean
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Pilgrim
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janean
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Pilgrim
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CovenantInBlood
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Tom
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Anonymous
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:10 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:22 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:58 PM
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chestnutmare
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:54 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:15 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:41 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:14 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:41 PM
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YES!
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J_Edwards
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Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:35 AM
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Re: YES!
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Tom
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Thu Apr 01, 2004 5:44 AM
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Re: YES!
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J_Edwards
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Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:04 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Tom
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Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:21 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:38 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:04 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:13 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:19 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:28 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:40 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:01 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:12 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:30 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:16 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:28 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:49 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:14 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:26 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:48 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:35 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:25 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:02 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:17 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:30 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:41 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Tom
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Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:47 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
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Cranmer
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:48 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:31 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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chestnutmare
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:18 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:22 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:25 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Robert B Foster
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Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:40 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
|
Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:24 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Robert B Foster
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Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:51 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Greg Bowman
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Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:36 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:07 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:23 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:40 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:18 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:29 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:34 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:46 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Cranmer
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:14 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:29 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Cranmer
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Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:44 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Tom
|
Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:47 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Tom
|
Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:58 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:41 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:18 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:40 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
chestnutmare
|
Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:27 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:15 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:49 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:57 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:54 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
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Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:08 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:26 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:41 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:45 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Cranmer
|
Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:47 PM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Robert B Foster
|
Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:03 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
042Dave
|
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:35 AM
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Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
brightfame52
|
Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:55 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:41 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
brightfame52
|
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:34 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Pilgrim
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:05 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be sav
|
Tom
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:53 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:56 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:16 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:55 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:52 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:04 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:41 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:32 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:28 AM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:20 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Pilgrim
|
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:17 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:26 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:31 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
Andy
|
Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:29 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
brightfame52
|
Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:57 PM
|
Re: Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved?
|
godrulez
|
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:18 PM
|
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