The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum The Passion

Hi Fred:

Thanks for the response. I do appreciate it and also the candor.

You said:
It is your wounded sensibilities, Fred. What I said is what I meant. You read way too much into what I said, but I appologize if the wording was what led you to take it that way. I respect John as a godly man who acts on the strength of his convictions and one who loves the Lord and has done much in service of The Savior.

Thus, I do believe John has valuable things to say, and for some that value may actually over ride the damage done, IMO, if he doesn't clearly support the 2nd Commandment in his statements about the movie. But for me, the time would be better spent in reading and understanding what these men of past generations whose views you have cast aside on this issue, had to say with respect to the second commandment and other aspects of the Christian life. To me the issue is more than trivial, and John's "being a model for apologetics" is not as important as recognizing the value of obedience to the clear instructions of God on this issue. It't that simple, for me, as it was apparently for men like Owen and Ursinus.



I haven't been deriding fundamentalist churches, you have. But I agree with you on the shallow nature of fundamentalism. That is why I was never a member of a fundamentalist church. The church I spent the most time in, and which I have mentioned here as an antinomian church, was a intellectualist church that derided fundamentalism, and prided itself on not being fundamentalist, another trap to be avoided in my view <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Everyone that accepts the currency of the older confessions with regard to the second commandment is not automatically a fundamentalist.

Thanks Fred for making that clear. I don't follow John's minstry closely so I had no idea where he stood on this and so I appreciate your clarity on it.


Correction, as has been stated in previous posts, the convictions concerning the 2nd commandment are indeed the application of biblical exegesis. The creeds you mention, and they include more than the WCF, as Pilgrim has pointed out to you, were developed by the best biblical scholars of the times in which they were written, many if not most, of whom are considered by todays best scholars to have attained heights of wisdom and insight into God's word that simply hasn't been surpassed in the succeeding centuries. I'm thinking here of men like Owen, T. Goodwin and so on. It may not be YOUR biblical exegesis, but it most certainly is biblical exegesis.

Yes, you have made this statement before, but unlike your assertion here, it has not been ignored. It has been answered. Apparently not to your satisfaction, but it has been answered. Your interpretation of the purpose of the Cherubim and the bronze serpent, as well their application to the issue at hand, not to mention the Lords purpose in providing vs 5 of the context to the 2nd commandment is lacking in my view, as has been pointed out in other posts on this subject. You are of course entitled to another view, but you are rejecting the majority view of the orthodox Christian community for centuries, and I find your basis for doing so quite unsubstantial, if what you have provided here is the whole of it.


Fred, you must have me confused with someone else. I have told you what my convictions are based on, as have others on this site. It seems you are trying to say that either our (my) covictions are based on shallow fundamentalism or "creedal tradition", and you reject the fact that I and others have told you that we have studied the scriptures too, have applied biblical exegesis to them and come up with a different postion than you. As I said before, I did not come to my place of belief, soley on the basis of observing the results of antinomian error in various contexts, nor have I blindly swallowed a "creedal tradtion".


I have already given the basis of my suspicion that your views are considered by some as tending toward antinomianism in the form of direct quotes from respected scholars that say that NCT has that tendency. Thus your attempting to to imply that my view is based on a lack of analysis or simple difference in convictions conveniently avoids the issue, does it not?



Those "anemic congregations I escaped from" are very similar to those that you, by your own admission, escaped from. But you keep refering to this as the basis of my current views, which it is not, and thus I can't help but wonder if you have really escaped to the extent that you believe. In other words, Fred, not everyone disagrees with you on this issue because they are shallow fundamentalists.


Agreed, and on the issue at hand, I do indeed accept the WCF and the Heidleberg Catechism as good doctrinal statements.


Agreed again, and in the case of the 2nd Commandment, I believe the creeds in question rightly apply the Biblical teaching on this subject and I refuse to lay them aside.

In Him,

Gerry