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RFK Jr.
by Pilgrim - Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:56 PM
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China
by Tom - Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615 |
It could have taken a totally different direction if one of you would have rightly challenged Tom's assertion that Martyn Lloyd-Jones was or could have been considered to be a "Charismatic". IMHO, he was clearly NOT "A Charismatic", although he did hold to quasi-partial non-cessationist views. Yes, I see your point, however, there are many that consider him Charismatic as well (Piper and Grudem accept MLJ as a "C."). Several Reformed individuals I know will not read him because of this very fact. Thus, I chose not to challenge Tom's statement (Martyn Lloyd-Jones could be called a Charismatic, though I may challenge this later depending on context...) as it may very well be correct depending on one’s definition of Charismatic. Martyn Lloyd-Jones was a cessationist, however, he did teach the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a distinct experience to conversion. But, he came out very strongly against the Warfield kind of cessationism. He deals with the cessationist arguments and decides that they are based on conjectures and arguments from silence in order to justify a particular prejudice. He states emphatically, "To hold such a view," he says, "is simply to quench the Spirit" (see Piper's sermon below). In addition, MLJ spoke of “Seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit,” but this is not the same as speaking in tongues.... He looked at this as happening after regeneration. As matter a fact in his book Joy Unspeakable he states, “The Spirit does give experiences. I have tried to show that there is no experience possible to the Christian in this world higher than this experience of the baptism with the Spirit.” While I do believe MLJ was much more balanced than many I see today, none-the-less, he held to a second work of the Holy Spirit. This second work is consistent with what some would consider a Charismatic doctrine (but again it depends on one's definition of "C"). In addition, MLJ said such things as: I think it is quite without scriptural warrant to say that all these gifts ended with the apostles or the Apostolic Era. I believe there have been undoubted miracles since then. (Iain H. Murray, David Martyn Lloyd-Jones: The Fight of Faith 1939-1981, p. 786. See also Joy Unspeakable, p. 246.)
It is perfectly clear that in New Testament times, the gospel was authenticated in this way by signs, wonders and miracles of various characters and descriptions ... Was it only meant to be true of the early church? ... The Scriptures never anywhere say that these things were only temporary—never! There is no such statement anywhere! (The Sovereign Spirit, p. 39). MLJ also spoke out against what many Charismatics do as well; including tongues as seen today. An interesting, sermon on MLJ is A Passion for Christ-Exalting Power, by John Piper.
Reformed and Always Reforming,
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Entire Thread
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Are Charismatics Christians?
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Tom
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:38 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Anonymous
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:44 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:00 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Pilgrim
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:48 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:06 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Tom
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Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:20 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Anonymous
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Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:42 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Tom
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Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:57 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:18 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Anonymous
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Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:57 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:57 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Anonymous
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Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:07 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Tom
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Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:51 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:56 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Tom
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Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:49 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:25 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Anonymous
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:38 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:52 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Anonymous
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:04 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:21 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Tom
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:42 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:02 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Tom
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:18 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Tom
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:27 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:03 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Pilgrim
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Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:45 PM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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J_Edwards
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Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:26 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Pilgrim
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Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:11 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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MarieP
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:16 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Pilgrim
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:13 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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timmopussycat
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Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:52 AM
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Re: Are Charismatics Christians?
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Peter
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:08 PM
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