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RFK Jr.
by Pilgrim - Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:56 PM
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China
by Tom - Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:43 PM
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#22261
Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:08 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615 |
Brian, Welcome to the forum  First let me say that I believe in the historic view of creation (6/24). While I do find the Framework Interpretation (FI) interesting it has only made the historic view (which is not without its difficulties) more concrete in my heart. Thus, for this reason I enjoy (when I have time) discussing it. Second, I have had two professors in the past attempt to teach me this view (Dr Futato and Dr. Waltke) who are both highly respected in their fields of OT and the study of Hebrew and other languages, et. AL. While I appreciated other things both of these professors taught, I did not find their arguments for these views convincing. Pipa’s ( From Chaos to Cosmos) does a good job IMO of critiquing Futato (Kline). Third, the FI denies historic Christianity, which is no small matter. TMK “no” theologian of antiquity has ever embraced FI (please correct me if I am wrong here and site the source and quote(s)…). If the FI is correct why do we not even find a hint of it in the OT/NT? What we actually find in the text are pointers toward 6/24. Fourth, to accept the FI worldview means one is accepting a scientific worldview first and foremost as truth. I know of “no” one who holds to the FI that maintains a young earth view (maybe I have not read enough). As matter a fact one of the claimed strengths of the FI is that it removes the possibility of conflict between the theories of modern scientists (old earth) and the Bible (young earth). While I am sure that is not the intent of these theologians, IMO it elevates science to the same level of truth as Scripture. Sola Scientifica or Sola Scriptura—I guess we will have to remove the sola? Fifth, I have problems with the FI seeing Gen 1 as a mere poem versus a historical account of creation. Although Genesis one may include poetic elements, it is not Hebrew poetry. The parallel construction that is the main characteristic of Hebrew poetry is missing. The OT does contain poetry about creation (Job 38:4-15; Ps 104; Is 40:21-31), and its literary form is quite distinct from that in Gen 1. Gen 1 is an historical narrative. [Young] Lastly, embracers of FI maintain that their view does away with the alleged conflict in interpreting Gen 1 & 2 (compare, Genesis 2:4-6; Genesis 2:19-20). Gunn points out, that it is argued that God created the whole vegetable and animal kingdoms before the creation of Adam according to Genesis one and after the creation of Adam according to Genesis two. However, I see Gen 1:1-2:3 as a general account of the creation of the universe and Gen 2:4f as a detailed account of the creation of man, woman and the garden, and the historical developments which immediately followed. This relationship between Genesis 1:1-2:3 and Genesis 2:4-25 is implied by the word translated history or generations ( toledoth) in Genesis 2:4a. This word "never tells how things or persons came into being. It tells what happened after such things or persons had appeared on the scene,” (H.C. Leupold, A Exposition of Genesis). In Genesis 2:4a, the statement "These are the toledoth of the heavens and the earth" means "not the coming of heaven and earth into existence, but the events that followed the establishment of heaven and earth ( Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, Waltke a holder of FI, himself an editor?). Just as the tholedoth of Noah, for example, do not mention his birth, but contain his history and the birth of his sons; so the tholedoth of the heavens and the earth do not describe the origin of the universe, but what happened to the heavens and the earth after their creation (C.F. Keil and F. Delitzsch, Commentary on the Old Testament). [Gunn] Have fun, I need to go take care of some personal business for a few days.
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Entire Thread
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Creation
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Tom
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Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:33 PM
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Re: Creation
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fredman
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Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:49 PM
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Re: Creation
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Tom
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Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:08 PM
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Re: Creation
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Tom
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Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:42 PM
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Re: Creation
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rmwilliamsjr
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Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:52 PM
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Re: Creation
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Tom
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:21 AM
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Re: Creation
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Adopted
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:38 PM
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Re: Creation
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Tom
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:45 PM
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Re: Creation
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Adopted
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:05 PM
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Re: Creation
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Pilgrim
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:21 PM
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Re: Creation
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MarieP
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:27 PM
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Re: Creation
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Anonymous
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:34 PM
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Re: Creation
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Tom
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:57 PM
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Re: Creation
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J_Edwards
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:31 PM
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Re: Creation
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Adopted
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Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:00 PM
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Re: Creation
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J_Edwards
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Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:49 PM
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Re: Creation
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Peter
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Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:11 PM
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Re: Creation
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Pilgrim
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:07 PM
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Re: Creation
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Adopted
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:58 PM
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Re: Creation
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Pilgrim
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Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:30 PM
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Re: Creation
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li0scc0
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Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:13 PM
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Re: Creation
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J_Edwards
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Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:01 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:18 AM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Tom
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Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:04 AM
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Anonymous
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Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:27 AM
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Anonymous
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Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:10 PM
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Anonymous
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Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:37 PM
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Henry
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Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:40 PM
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fredman
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Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:08 PM
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Anonymous
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Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:17 PM
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fredman
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Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:24 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:51 PM
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Henry
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:09 PM
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J_Edwards
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Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:48 PM
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Henry
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Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:33 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:59 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:26 PM
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Tom
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:56 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:12 AM
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Tom
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Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:11 AM
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Anonymous
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Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:25 AM
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Anonymous
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Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:13 AM
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Henry
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Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:30 AM
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rmwilliamsjr
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Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:00 PM
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Henry
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Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:48 PM
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rmwilliamsjr
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Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:34 PM
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Pilgrim
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Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:23 AM
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rmwilliamsjr
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Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:29 AM
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Pilgrim
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Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:59 AM
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J_Edwards
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Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:41 PM
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Henry
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Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:35 PM
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rmwilliamsjr
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Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:56 PM
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J_Edwards
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Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:28 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:47 AM
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Tom
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Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:40 AM
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Anonymous
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:28 PM
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:26 AM
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:54 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:35 AM
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rmwilliamsjr
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Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:02 PM
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CovenantInBlood
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rmwilliamsjr
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Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:36 PM
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CovenantInBlood
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:48 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:20 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:38 AM
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rmwilliamsjr
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:23 AM
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Tom
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:11 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:34 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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J_Edwards
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Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:26 PM
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Anonymous
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:46 PM
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J_Edwards
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:16 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:02 AM
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Yummy Yom
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J_Edwards
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Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:53 PM
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Re: Yummy Yom
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:15 AM
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Re: Yummy Yom
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J_Edwards
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Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:21 PM
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Re: Yummy Yom
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Anonymous
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:01 PM
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Re: Yummy Yom
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J_Edwards
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Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:46 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:13 AM
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Anonymous
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Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:41 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:38 AM
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Anonymous
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Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:11 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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fredman
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Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:42 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:09 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:23 PM
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Pilgrim
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Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:35 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:36 AM
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rmwilliamsjr
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Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:58 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:12 AM
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J_Edwards
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:08 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:23 PM
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Anonymous
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Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:59 PM
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J_Edwards
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Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:40 PM
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Henry
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Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:17 PM
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Henry
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:47 PM
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Henry
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:52 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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rmwilliamsjr
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:58 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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J_Edwards
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:57 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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rmwilliamsjr
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:33 AM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:11 AM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Tom
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:33 AM
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For Brian
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Tom
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:05 AM
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Re: For Brian
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:17 AM
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J_Edwards
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:54 PM
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Anonymous
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:40 AM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Henry
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:20 AM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:52 AM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:57 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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fredman
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:08 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:44 AM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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J_Edwards
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Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:17 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:11 AM
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Pilgrim
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:00 AM
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Anonymous
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:12 PM
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Pilgrim
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:47 PM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:23 AM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Tom
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:25 AM
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Re: Creation . . . . . and a related question!
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Anonymous
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:27 PM
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