speratus said:
CovenantInBlood said:

"Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:21).
Looks to me like Paul is saying that God makes another vessel for dishonor.

I have never seen that verse translated "vessel of honor" and "vessel of dishonor." There is no indication in that verse, taken in isolation, how the vessel made by God becomes honorable or dishonorable.

Um, yes, there is every indication that God makes these vessels, some for honor and some for dishonor. There's no other way to read that text unless you import foreign ideas into it.

CovenantInBlood opinesI don't disagree that Adam sinned and, as a result, all men are condemned. Yet this condemnation was imposed by God Himself. It's not as though the condemnation is some bare natural consequence.

Who caused Adam's fall? If the devil and Adam and not God, how is that reprobation?

Huh? What I'm saying is that God imposed the penalty. So all men are condemned in Adam, not because of natural law, but because of God's justice.

Luther explains how this "hardening" of Pharoah does not create fresh evil

I agree with Luther. I've said nothing about "fresh evil." But the important thing to remember is that God doesn't harden hearts of good or neutral people, but only the hearts of evil people, who by their own will desire hardened hearts. So at once God is just in hardening them and they are accountable for their hardening.

CovenantInBlood queries
Do fallen men have any will to do evil?

Their will is in bondage to sin. There is no free will to do evil.

Right, they have a fallen will by which they choose to do evil, without God coercing or forcing them.


I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.