The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Predestination

As J_Edwards pointed out to you, your assurance is rather frail and unfortunately tentative since it is grounded in you (with God's help?). I was going to respond to your first post which started this thread but here is going to work out fine I think. At this point I must say that your problem is NOT with the doctrine of Predestination, although undoubtedly you think it is. The problem you are having is rather with the biblical doctrine of "Total Depravity"; you only THINK it is with Predestination. And why have I come to that conclusion? Because you mention in several places including the statement above, this thing called "free-will" and how it was YOUR choice which evidently saved you and now is the basis of your assurance. You further expand on that by saying it was the Holy Spirit who drew you but: "I still had a choice, free will." And lastly, you then state that this ability to choose is the same as that which Adam possessed.

Okay.... let's work backward, using your last idea first. If/since you believe that you are no different than Adam in regard to your ability to choose, then of necessity you are saying that there was basically no significance difference between Adam before the Fall and Adam and his progeny, of which we all are, after the Fall. But Scripture would testify something entirely different. The Bible over and over again describes fallen mankind as being dead in trespasses and sins, incapable of seeking God, having a corrupt heart, where every imagination of the thoughts of his heart are only evil continually, whose understanding is darkened and whose hearts are hardened, et al. (Eph 2:1-3; Rom 3:11; Jer 17:9; Gen 6:5; 8:21; Eph 4:17, 18) All these descriptions of fallen mankind and myriad more are examples of that "death" which was promised to Adam should he chose to disobey God and eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:16, 17) Thus, from the very moment Adam ate of that "forbidden fruit", he died; he and all that came from him. (cf. Rom 5:12-18; 1Cor 15:21, 22)

What this means that man's very nature changed from being upright; i.e., desiring to love God and to do all that He commanded in loving obedience to being depraved, corrupt; i.e., desiring self and hating God and only able and thus willing to do that which is sinful. One can only do that which is according to one's nature. If one has a godly heart, then he will love God and desire to do good. If one has an evil heart, a corrupt nature, then he will hate God and desire to do evil. (cf. Matt 7:17, 18; 12:33-35). One cannot even desire to be made good never mind make himself good. This is what the Lord Christ taught Nicodemus, i.e., it is of necessity that you be born from above (again) before you can even see the kingdom of God. And how is this new birth brought about? According to the incarnate Christ it is by a secret (invisible) and sovereign work of the Holy Spirit, such as the movement of the wind of which no man knows from where it comes nor where it goes, but only seeing the effects of it after it has come.

So, the bottom line is that fallen men are hardly like Adam pre-Fall. They are all born spiritually dead and are thus totally incapable of even desiring God, never mind repenting and believing if given the choice. The are also born guilty before God and are under His just condemnation for their part in Adam's sin, who was the Federal Head of the human race, i.e., whatever Adam chose to do the result would affect all. Fallen men, sinners, are bound by their corrupt natures and are free to choose that which that corrupt nature dictates/allows, which is sin. (Jh 5:40; 6:44)) See also here: Free-will - A Slave.

I'll be very brief on this one since I think it can be answered by saying your definition of "foreknowledge" is not the one Scripture gives. Foreknowledge is decidedly NOT "a looking into the future to see what will occur". God's foreknowledge is most always used in Scripture to mean, "fore-loved", e.g., Rom 8:29. And foreknowledge follows foreordination (decree), not before it, e.g., Acts 2:23. God [fore]knows BECAUSE He has decreed whatsoever will come to pass. I can say I [fore]know I will be at such and such a place tomorrow because I have [pre]determined that it is what I plan to do. If I looked back upon my arrival at that place, I then cannot rightly call it [before]knowledge but [after]knowledge, of which you will not find in Scripture. For more, see here: The Foreknowledge of God.

Whoa there big fella... too many questions. I'll deal with the first only here. God has ordained the means as well as the end of all things. Jesus had to die to pay for the penalty owed to those fallen in Adam. God's holy law had been transgressed and the penalty for that transgression was death. Thus, only through the shedding of blood is the remission of sins. God surely chose those who He desired to save for His own glory. But that salvation includes their forgiveness of sins through the payment of death and a perfect righteousness which comes by God's imputing Christ's righteousness to those who believe. Both are necessary; 1) eternal death and 2) perfect righteousness. In short, God simply can't pick someone and accept them as they are. He is of purer eyes to behold sin (Hab 1:13) and doesn't look the other way, as it were but rather He must exercise justice in punishing sinners for their rebellion and guilt.

Perhaps you might benefit from reading this little comparison too: Do You REALLY Believe that Salvation is by Grace Alone?

In His grace,