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CMH states,

I ask very intrigued here, what do you see this as saying? I try to come to scripture from an unbiased perspective so that I may not see it and jump to OH MEN HAVE FREE WILL!! or visa versa, OH HOW WE WERE ALL CHOSEN!!! type of attitude and I see a little of both in this set of scripture.. I downloaded VIA e-sword the LITERAL TRANSLATION and so that is what I am reading, (in hopes of not getting a poor translation)..
It is “impossible” to come to scripture from an unbiased perspective. No one has a tabla rasa [blank slate] approach. Thus, our presupposition(s) need to be scriptural, not personal.

PS: Stick with the ASV and you will have a better translation.

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CMH states,

Starting in verse 37 of John 6 I would see a reformed view.. Who ever the FATHER GIVES will come and in no way be cast out.. I see that much so I would assume that is what you meant for me to get? and then into verse 38 I see that Jesus is saying that he came out of heaven NOT FOR HIS WILL but for the will of HIS FATHER whom sent Him. and then He continues to say that the will of the Father is that all He was given will not be lost but raised up on the last day..
God is not like Sybil, is not schizophrenic, and does not have multiple personalities that in one area He speaks Reformed and other Arminian. Since Arminianism and Reformed theology are opposing systems one must be a lie. Thus, if God embraced BOTH, then God would not be God since He would be embracing a lie.

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CMH states,

So far I see a reformed theme here.. God is giving Christ the people, and of these people NONE shall be lost and in fact the will of God is not only to keep from losing any, but to raise them up.. Verse 40 is kinda where I start to see the other side, (I would never call myself or my view of Armenian true Armenian because I do not believe that I could or anyone could lose there salvation)... Between verse 40 and 43 Jesus is talking to the crowd at His home town and they ask in a very con deciding way, is this not the same boy who grew up here who now tells us He is God?? They are mocking Him.

Yet verse 44 gets thick.. No one is able to come to Christ unless God draws them, and they will be raised on the last day. Verse 45 however quotes Isa. 54:13 saying ,"It has been written in the Prophets, They "shall" all "be taught of God." So then everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me;

So EVERYONE will be taught OF God but not all will learn from Him or in other words, believe in Him. I see that much as well.. Yet it still sounds like they were all given equal opportunity. They were all taught OF God and therefore were able to believe or not to believe..
No. EVERYONE will not be taught of God. This is just your presupposition. This is NOT what these scriptures teach. What you espouse is a salvation by works – a salvation by mere intelligence (taught of God). What of being born again of the Spirit?

This scripture is merely saying that in the Messianic age all the citizens of the true Israel (the invisible church) would be taught of God. Compare: Isa. 54:13; 60:2- 3; Jer. 31:33-34; Mic. 4:2; Zeph. 3:9; and Mal. 1:11. As Hendriksen states,

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Here again the divine and the human activities in the work of salvation are juxtaposed, for immediately after “And they shall all be taught of God” there follows, Everyone who listens to the Father and learns of him will come to me. In this connection, however, it should be emphasized that in showing how sinners are saved Scripture never merely places side by side the divine and the human factors, predestination and responsibility, God’s teaching and man’s listening. On the contrary, it is always definitely indicated that it is God who takes the initiative and who is in control from start to finish. It is God who draws before man comes; it is he that teaches before man can listen and learn. Unless the Father draws, no one can come. That is the negative side. The positive is: everyone who listens to the Father and learns of him will come. Grace always conquers; it does what it sets out to do. In that sense, it is irresistible. The absolute character of the cooperation between Father and Son, which, in turn, is based upon unity of essence, is stressed once more as in so many other passages in this Gospel: he who listens to the Father (not merely in the outward sense but so that he actually learns of him) comes to the Son, “will come to me.” Such a person will embrace Christ by a true and living faith. This listening and learning, however, does not indicate that any human being would ever be able to comprehend God (or to have an immediate knowledge of him apart from his revelation in Christ). Such fullness of knowledge is the prerogative of the Son. Hence, we read: Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who comes from God, he has seen the Father.

William Hendriksen and Simon J. Kistemaker, vol. 1-2, New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to John. New Testament Commentary, 1:240 (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1953-2001).
What your view conveniently (not taught of God) overlooks is,

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Matthew 13:13-17 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Clearly, the ONLY ones taught of God are the ones enabled to hear God. Clearly, it is God who acts first to heal spiritual ears that His voice may be heard. Clearly, God is not Arminian.

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CMH states,

Because I am not real familiar with this book, I was a little lost …
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/comfort.gif" alt="" />

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CMH states,

Verse 64.. But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were, the ones not believing, and who was the one betraying Him. And he said, "Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me except it is given to him from My Father."

Here it seems as if Jesus said Because He knew from the beginning who was going to betray or believe, that He told them that no one was able to come to Him except that which was given by the Father.

Towards the end it seems as if there was a more equal choice for everyone who was taught OF God, and because there was a foreknowledge of who would believe or betray, that Gods choice was made.. I understand that Calvinists definition of foreknew or knew is different than most.. ??
When the Bible speaks of God’s foreknowledge by definition, it also speaks of His foreordination. How can you have foreknowledge on God’s part with foreordination or how can you have foreordination without foreknowledge? These are flip-sides of the same coin when speaking of God’s character. You can’t have one without the other.

Using your philosophical approach God could be run off His throne. Carried out to its natural ends, you state that God ordains what man thinks and desires. If mankind thought that God should no longer be God and lose all power, then by your definition He could be run off His throne. However, the tower of Babel (Gen. 11) reveals that God does not do what man thinks and desires (Prov. 14:12), but does what He desires (Isa. 14:27; Dan. 4:35). If God did what man desired then hell would await us all, for every imagination of the thoughts of [man’s] heart is only evil continually (Gen. 6:5).

In addition, your presupposition that EVERYONE is taught of God continues to lead to faulty interpretation(s). Only the ones that God gave to Jesus, come to Jesus (6:37). No man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him (6:44). God draws and gives and He does not draw and teach all for Christ, for He hath made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil (Prov. 16:4). Thus, verses 64ff echo what have been said in verses 37 and 44. None can come to Christ in faith, but those that are persuaded and enabled to do so by the Spirit; but all these will come, drawn by the irresistible grace of heavenly love, and none who come is rejected. Furthermore, the unbelief, though inexcusable, was to be expected, for faith is a gift of God, and it is not given to all men (Eph. 2:8-10).

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CMH states,

I have a 2 year old sister that I know.. I love her and interact with her, and I could tell you her actions in certain situations BECAUSE I know her.. I could not walk down the street to a random house, look at their 2 year old child and tell them what their kid would do in ANY situation because I DO NOT know that child.. Am I wrong in this assumption?
Once again, you speak of your assumptions as opposed to what you stated at the beginning – “I try to come to scripture from an unbiased perspective.” Which is it? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

Once again, your assumption is incorrect. What you are saying is that God knows some people (my sister), but He does not know others (other 2 year olds) – in others words God is not omniscient, that God is still learning, God does not foreordain, God does not have knowledge or foreknowledge. Are you an open theist?. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,