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Tom
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 4,585
Joined: April 2001
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Most Online732 Jan 15th, 2023
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67 |
John, thanks for the response. That is definitely an interesting way of looking at things.
I'm glad we agree that Adam had free will.
"In other words, traditional Calvinists believe in a free will, and they believe that Adam's fall was a robustly free decision. They also, however, believe that God decreed this robustly free fall in a way that is compatible with this robust freedom."
I don't know what you mean by "robustly free decision." How is this different than a free decision?
You realize that some here, like Pilgrim, don't believe in free will at all. They don't even believe that God has free will, because God is not free to sin.
In response to your scenario, I agree with you that God knows all things. But I don't believe we have any evidence that there were infinite worlds up for the choosing, and that one of them involved what you call a "No-Fall" universe.
It may very well be that Adam fell, in all of them. But it's speculative to assume there were other ones at all.
This is the universe we live in, and as far as we know there isn't another one with radio-controlled humans with antlers.
So it was a fact that God foreknew the Fall; I don't think it's safe to say it's a fact that he foreordained it.
Mike
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Entire Thread
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Free will
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MrDon
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Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:39 AM
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Re: Free will
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chestnutmare
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Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:27 PM
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Re: Free will
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Robin
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Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:28 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:30 PM
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Re: Free will
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patricius79
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Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:03 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:25 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:28 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:15 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:33 PM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:38 AM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:54 AM
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Re: Free will
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sojourner
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:56 PM
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Re: Free will
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AC.
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:53 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:20 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:17 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:15 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:18 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:05 AM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:22 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:05 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:26 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:35 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:17 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:37 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:43 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:24 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:20 PM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:23 AM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:11 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:39 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:25 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:07 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:24 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:11 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:15 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:46 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:54 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:59 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:46 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:33 AM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:55 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:46 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:00 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:14 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:21 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:41 PM
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Re: Free will
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chestnutmare
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:10 AM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:02 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:25 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:03 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:08 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:44 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:19 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:48 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:43 AM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:42 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:19 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:11 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:17 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:06 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:00 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:21 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:58 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:02 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:35 PM
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Re: Free will
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AC.
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:43 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:53 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:03 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:29 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:33 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:56 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:06 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:29 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:48 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:25 PM
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Re: Free will
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AC.
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:31 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:43 PM
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Re: Free will
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AC.
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:54 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:04 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:53 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:23 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:33 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:24 PM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:04 AM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:07 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:26 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:03 AM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:37 AM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:56 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:15 AM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:58 AM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:05 AM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:16 PM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:35 AM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:05 PM
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