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RFK Jr.
by Pilgrim - Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:56 PM
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China
by Tom - Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 67 |
Knowing and decreeing are just different things, by definition.
If we have free will, then God knowing that we will choose to sin is not the same thing as God causing us to sin.
I'm not sure what you mean by "mutually exclusive". All I'm saying is that foreordaining and foreknowledge are different things.
God foreordains because he foreknows. For example, he can give special blessings to believers based on his foreknowledge of their decisions to accept Christ.
But I think Calvinism teaches that God foreknows, because he has foreordained everything. So the two are conflated.
They aren't mutually exclusive; I'm arguing that foreknowledge is not an effect of foreordaining - the idea is kind of odd when you think about it - why say God can foreknow things, if it's assumed he caused them to happen in the first place?
If we go to Scripture, it's clear that foreknowledge and predestination are different.
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Romans 8:29
To me this says foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing. It also says that one follows another: predestination is based on God's foreknowledge. If God foreordained everything, then foreknowledge would actually make no sense: God foreknew what he had already predestined?
Mike
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Entire Thread
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Free will
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MrDon
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Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:39 AM
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Re: Free will
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chestnutmare
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Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:27 PM
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Re: Free will
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Robin
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Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:28 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:30 PM
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Re: Free will
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patricius79
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Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:03 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:25 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:28 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:15 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:33 PM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:38 AM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:54 AM
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Re: Free will
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sojourner
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:56 PM
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Re: Free will
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AC.
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:53 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:20 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:17 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:15 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:18 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:05 AM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:22 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:05 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:26 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:35 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:17 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:37 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:43 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:24 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:20 PM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:23 AM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:11 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:39 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:25 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:07 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:24 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:11 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:15 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:46 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:54 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:59 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:46 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:33 AM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:55 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:46 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:00 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:14 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:21 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:41 PM
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Re: Free will
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chestnutmare
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:10 AM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:02 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:25 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:03 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:08 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:44 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:19 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:48 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:43 AM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:42 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:19 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:11 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:17 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:06 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:00 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:21 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:58 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:02 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:35 PM
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Re: Free will
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AC.
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:43 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:53 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:03 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:29 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:33 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:56 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:06 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:29 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:48 PM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:25 PM
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Re: Free will
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AC.
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:31 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:43 PM
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Re: Free will
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AC.
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:54 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:04 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:53 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:23 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:33 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:24 PM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:04 AM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:07 PM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:26 PM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:03 AM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:37 AM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:56 PM
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Re: Free will
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Pilgrim
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:15 AM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:58 AM
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Re: Free will
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jmp
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Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:05 AM
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Re: Free will
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MikeL
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:16 PM
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Re: Free will
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Tom
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Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:35 AM
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Re: Free will
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:05 PM
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