There are too many messages on this discussion, I hope this will encapsulate the issues. (Pilgrim, I'm sorry I've missed your questions, I'll try to get to them here.) I wanted to make sure I understand what I see as two positions on the issue of the Fall.

I understand John as saying that God chose this universe out of an infinite number of other universes, meaning anything that happens is foreordained in the sense that it was chosen and the others were not. This one happens to include Adam freely choosing to disobey God, so God has in that sense foreordained the Fall.

I understand Pilgrim as saying that God did not do this (have infinite worlds to choose from), but that Adam still freely chose to disobey God in this world, which led to the Fall. God did foreordain the Fall, because everything is foreordained - there is nothing that happens that is not foreordained by God.

If these are correct:

John, if God created a world where everyone had free will, not just Adam, wouldn't that still allow us to say He foreordained everything in it? I believe we all do have free will, but I see your point about how it might all be foreordained nonetheless. Is this a fair conclusion?

Pilgrim, you say God foreordained ALL things, which gets to the root of the problem for me: because, like you, I can't say that God is the author of sin. However, that is where logic will lead us if we take this belief seriously. If God foreordained all things, then he foreordained sin. He foreordained the Fall. He foreordained the murder of Abel. He foreordained multiple genocides. He foreordained the 4,000 or so abortions that were committed today.

I'm sorry, but you can't just wave your hands about and say, "But let's not forget, that God is not the author, of sin." That God is the author of sin is the most logical conclusion to draw from the belief that He foreordains all things.

When I encounter a philosophy that leads to something like that, I don't keep the entire system, and add at the end a disclaimer. I discard the philosophy and find another one. If a philosophy ends up contradicting an aspect of God I know to be true - That God is not the author of sin - I don't keep the philosophy; instead, I get rid of it, becuase it contradicts the character of God.

So tell me, why do you think God is not the author of sin?

Now for your questions:

I have not read all that Calvin has written. I have read certain things that put up huge red flags, and I stopped reading. Likewise, I have not read all of Aquinas. Or CS Lewis, for that matter. Mainly because not everything they write interests me, and if it it did, I wouldn't have time to read it all.

I believe that God foreknew man's rebellion, and came up with a plan that involved the crucifixion of Christ.

The crucifixion was not a surprise to God - He foreknew it - but it was not decreed in the sense that God really wanted to crucify His Son. It was necessary to deal with man's sins, which were committed freely. Jesus willingly offered himself, in obedience.

I haven't had a chance to view your link - have about 5 more minutes here - so don't know what "more" means. I believe God is all-knowing, so what we call foreknowledge, He has.

I hope you don't think I'm not reading your posts - I am. This one has gotten extremely long and due to time constraints I don't always have time to check out your links and articles on first sitting. But I think the arguments, in this case, are pretty plain. I think we can all see that I'm trying to pin your thoughts down, two in particluar: that God foreordains all things, and that God is not the author of sin. Then there are related topics, like what you mean by "free choices" as related to what you mean by "nature" and how you relate them to our different views of what God foreordains.

Hope that answers all the questions, thank you for being patient.

Mike