Originally Posted by MikeL
[I've asked this question more than once and I shall have to ask again. Where did God's "foreknowledge" (prescience) originate? You firmly reject the view that says that God's foreknowledge necessary follows foreordination (eternal decree(s)). So, how did God foreknow what to ordain? This, de facto of course, denies the very word "predestination" found in Scripture for it turns it upon its head to become, "postdestination"?]

Where did the aspect of God we call foreknowledge originate? Um, God didn't originate, so neither did his abilities?

How did God foreknow what to ordain? Because he....has foreknowledge?

I really don't know how to answer these.
That's unfortunate. Then why the angst against God's foreknowledge following foreordination if you are unable to comprehend the question which addresses your rejection of this biblical truth? You are adamant that foreordination follows God's foreknowledge. And I am simply asking where this foreknowledge (prescience=knowledge of facts) originated? You say that God saw men believing before He determined to foreordain their creation and end. So, please explain where these individuals existed and from whom God derived His knowledge. And this impacts the very definition of Omniscience as well, which I explained in some detail elsewhere. For, if God's knowledge is derived from the acts of free-will creatures, then it cannot be said that He is Omniscient in His being. God cannot know what any particular individual will decide until that person actually exercises his/her will. Thus, it necessarily follows that that which the creature decides is unknown to God beforehand, vis-a-vis ignorance; lack of knowledge.

Originally Posted by MikeL
We agree God has foreknowledge. We agree that he foreordains things.

Romans 8:29 clearly separates the two, and places foreknowledge as the basis for predestination.

Do you not see this in Romans 8:29?
I've also addressed the place of foreknowledge and its meaning in Rom 8:29 elsewhere. Verse 28 precedes verse 29 and is inseparable as to its context. "According to His purpose" is foreordination. Verse 28 begins with the conjunction "For", i.e., result. Therefore, Those whom God had purposed, those He foreknew and then predestinated to salvation.

Secondly, "foreknow" in verse 28 is to be properly understood as "fore-loved". The object of foreknowledge isn't "what was seen", i.e., former prescience [facts about] but rather the text clearly says, "whom". God fore-loved them and predestinated them to be saved in Christ. And then Paul spells out the "ordo salutis" of that loving predestination; calling, justifying, glorifying. Their salvation is fixed, immutable, infallible as is clearly seen from the verb tenses Paul used. This is in full accord and harmony with what Paul wrote in Eph 1:4-13.

One of best articles written on the subject of Foreknowledge was penned by Arthur W. Pink which you can find here: The Foreknowledge of God.

And finally, one of the most edifying books one can read on this subject of foreknowledge and election was written by Kenneth Johns, published by P&R Publishing. I am unsure if it is still available or not. It is a little paperback book written in a style which most can understand but which succinctly deals with these issues. I happen to have the first chapter online, which at the end he delves into the Romans 9 passage in some detail. You can read it here: Something is Wrong Here.

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simul iustus et peccator

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