Originally Posted by freewill
Their corruption of nature is no excuse for sin is what ALL men desire most in their fallen state. They are FREE to sin. But they are not FREE to do righteousness (Jer 13:23; Matt 7:17,18; 12:33).

The Scriptures Pilgrim lists do not touch this issue at all. But he evoids the ones that do. Notice what God said to Cain in Genesis 4:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Now lets notice a few things. First Cain and Abel are both, according to Calvinism, DEAD IN SIN, UNABLE TO OBEY, BELIEVE, BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH, ETC. So here comes Abel and God HAS RESPECT for him AND his offering. But not for Cain. And he says to Cain further, that if he "DOETH WELL" Cain WOULD BE ACCEPTED!!!
Free will is interwoven throughout the Bible. The problem isn't Calvinists denying free will, the problem is in how they define it.

Originally Posted by freewill
I though there is nothing fallen men can do that God respects and accepts. I thought there is nothing man can do that God would call doing "well"? And yet here we see RIGHT IN THE BEGINNING that the Calvinist has got it all wrong, and things are other than what they claim? Why did God accept Abel and his offering and not Cains? God tells us in 1John 3:

12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Notice that John tells us that Cain murdered his brother because his brother's WORKS were-----what? RIGHTEOUS! Yes, sinful, fallen, totally depraved Abel's WORKS were RIGHTEOUS, and that is why God had respect not only for Abel's works but for Abel himself!
And you cut off another of the hydra's heads. The Calvinist belief that man is totally depraved and incapable of good appears to be flatly contradicted by the conduct of Abel.


Originally Posted by freewill
And further, God told Cain that IF HE DID WELL, he would be accepted as well. So much for men NOT BEING FREE to do well, but only free to SIN. That is A LIE. Both Cain and Abel WERE FREE to do righteous works or not, and even after Cain blew it, God said he could try again, get it right, and God would accept him. And he further warned Cain, NOT that he was totally depraved and helpless in sin, but that sin was AT THE DOOR, and desired to have him, and the Cain MUST MASTER IT. How can God tell him this??? How can Cain master sin? And why did God say it was AT THE DOOR? I thought it controls all men inside and out? Well because the doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY is another lie.
Well said. You are attacking this on two fronts, for it's very clear that both brothers had free will. And far from the exercise of free will trespassing on the sovereignty of God, here you have God pleading for Cain to choose righteously.

Originally Posted by freewill
Notice Job One:

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

What??? A man born in sin, only able to sin, only free to sin, not born again, God calls PERFECT, UPRIGHT, one that feared God and shunned evil? How can a man who can ONLY SIN shun evil? How can such a man exist in a pre-regenerate state???

God calls Job perfect and upright--upright means someone WHO DOES THINGS right. So much for total depravity. Notice what else God says of Job:

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

So shall the Calvinst SLANDER Abel and Job and DENY what God has said of these men???

Unfortunately these arguments with Calvinists go in circles because they are thinking along a different paradigm. From the outside looking in, Calvinists believe man cannot have complete, unfettered free will outside of what has been preordained for him because that would subtract from God's sovereignty. Man is free to ride the train, but the tracks only go in one direction. Man is free to cast his vote, but his ballot only has one candidate. So in the Calvinist mindset, man freely chooses what has already been predetermined for him. It's an oddly hilarious circular paradox, but it makes perfect sense to them.

You actually won this debate the moment you brought up Job. For if Job could not choose perdition, having been predestined to choose God's righteousness, then it would have been a hollow victory indeed and Satan would have made mention of it. Satan's reasoning for Job's righteousness is that God set a hedge of protection and blessing around him. Satan was trying to make the case that Job's righteousness hung on the thread of God's blessing, and once the blessing was removed, Job would certainly curse God. Even Satan understood that Job had free will and could choose to die. Brought to its logical conclusion, the Calvinist view actually becomes an assault on God's glory here.

Let's consider this more closely. Would Satan have failed to object to the terms of this wager if Job's righteous decisions hinged on God's grace to quicken him from a state of total depravity? Would Satan. skilled lawyer that he is, have neglected to point out that because Job couldn't freely choose God without "help" that God's glory has thereby been diminished? Would Satan not demand a more equal field of play in which Job had uninfringed free-agency by which to make his choice?

The logic here proves fatal to Calvinist theology, does it not?

Liberalism -- Ideas so good, they have to be mandated.