Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Originally Posted by freewill
The Scriptures Pilgrim lists do not touch this issue at all. But he evoids the ones that do.
Now there is a classic refutation undergirded by sound exegesis. [Linked Image]

Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Originally Posted by freewill
Now lets notice a few things. First Cain and Abel are both, according to Calvinism, DEAD IN SIN, UNABLE TO OBEY, BELIEVE, BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH, ETC.
Calvinism asserts no such thing. We would assert that Abel was regenerate at the time of this offering, else he would have followed the manner of Cain's 'free-will' offering, which was contrary to what was required.

Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Free will is interwoven throughout the Bible. The problem isn't Calvinists denying free will, the problem is in how they define it.
1. It has not been established that free-will is interwoven throughout the Bible. It is assumed but not proven.

2. Calvinists define free-will as the ability to choose that which is contrary to one's nature. This has been established with myriad passages from Scripture. And by this definition, even God Himself doesn't have free-will, for God cannot sin. Man will always choose that which is most important to him under any given circumstance. And fallen man having a corruption of nature which is at enmity with God will always choose that which is sin. (Gen 6:5; 8:21; Jer 13:23; Rom 8:7,8, et al)

Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Originally Posted by freewill
I though there is nothing fallen men can do that God respects and accepts. I thought there is nothing man can do that God would call doing "well"? And yet here we see RIGHT IN THE BEGINNING that the Calvinist has got it all wrong, and things are other than what they claim? Why did God accept Abel and his offering and not Cains? God tells us in 1John 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
yep 1Jh 3:1 explains things clearly... Abel's works were righteous, which according to Jesus and Paul, his works were righteous because the tree was made good, i.e., Cain had a regenerate nature which was predisposed toward God and all that was good (Matt 7:16-20; 12:33; Rom 3:9-18; cf. Ps 53:1-3; 8:29,30; Eph 1:4; 2:1-3,8-10; 4:17-19; 5:25-27; Col 1:21,22).

Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Unfortunately these arguments with Calvinists go in circles because they are thinking along a different paradigm. From the outside looking in, Calvinists believe man cannot have complete, unfettered free will outside of what has been preordained for him because that would subtract from God's sovereignty. Man is free to ride the train, but the tracks only go in one direction. Man is free to cast his vote, but his ballot only has one candidate. So in the Calvinist mindset, man freely chooses what has already been predetermined for him. It's an oddly hilarious circular paradox, but it makes perfect sense to them.
1. As explained elsewhere, IF man has this Pelagian/semi-Pelagian 'free-will', then if held consistently, which some do, then you end up with "Open Theism/Middle Knowledge" where God is not Omnipotent. Why? Because God cannot know the future, regardless if God is 'outside of time' or not, due to the fact that He cannot know what any individual will do until that individual decides to exercise this free-will.

2. IF free-will is true, then prophecy is impossible, for there is an infinite number of possibilities concerning the creation, which could take place that would thwart its fulfillment. Only if God has foreordained all things and providentially governs all things to their appointed ends is prophecy possible.

3. The epitome of the biblical, Calvinist system is marvelously displayed in the crucifixion of Christ. No one was forced against their will to crucify Him. Each individual did exactly and most freely what they wanted to do... YET, all was done in complete conformity to God's eternal foreordination.

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Acts 2:22-24 (ASV) "Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."

Acts 3:17-18 (ASV) "And now, brethren, I know that in ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled."

Acts 4:26-28 (ASV) "The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed: for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass."

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simul iustus et peccator

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