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1. Does loving God help me obey Him or does obeying God help me love Him? I appreciate the response to this question, especially how you connected love with submitting to His will. I believe it is God’s perfect will that these happen together. I also believe loving God helps me obey Him for the following reasons:
a. The word “if” used twice (John 14:15 John 14:23). Grammatically speaking, “if” is identified here as a conditional particle. That is, it mentions conditions or circumstances upon which certain consequences follow. The word “keep”, in John 14:15 John 14:23, means “to attend to carefully, to take care of”. So the question becomes this: Does “loving” Jesus help me want to “attend to obedience carefully” or does “attending to obedience carefully” help me want to “love Jesus”. This is kind of like looking at John 3:16 and asking the question: Did God “send Jesus to die for us” because “He loved the world” or did God “love the world” because “he sent Jesus to die for it”? In the Luke 10:38-42, the word “love” is not used but it is easy to see love causing Mary to “attend to carefully”: “Now as they went on their way, he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, who also sat at the Lord's feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving; and she came up to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister did leave me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. But the Lord answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art anxious and troubled about many things: but “one thing is needful”: for “Mary hath chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her”.
b. The word “love” linked with the word “controls” in 2 Cor 5:14-15. The reason for the control is seen clearly at the end of the verse: “that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf”. This is another place where we can see the enabling power of love. It can enable one to essentially “give away his life”. (“He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.”)
c. The phrase “the love of God has been perfected” linked to “whoever keeps His word” in 1 Jn 2:1-6. Here, the word “perfected” means to carry through completely; to accomplish, finish, bring to an end: to complete (perfect), i. e. add what is yet lacking in order to render a thing full: to bring to the end (goal) proposed. ‎In other words, the end goal and purpose of loving God is to keep his word. This is because keeping his word brings glory to God. Obedience that brings glory to God can be seen in John 17:4 ( “I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.”) and in Matt 5:16 (“Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” )
d. The phrase “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” in 1 Jn 5:3 and the phrase “And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments” in II Jn 1:6 where the word “that” is a final conjunction denoting “purpose” and “end”. The result being the conclusion that the purpose of loving God is to keep His commandments and walk according to them.
2. Is this important? /3. Why or why not? I too believe it is important, but for the following reasons:
a. The words “love” and “keeping his commandments” are linked with the word “and” three times in the law and the prophets and once in the NT (Deut 7:9, Neh 1:5, Dan 9:4 and I Jn 5:2-3). The frequency of this pairing, in the same order, over such a broad time span, by diverse writers indicates, at the very least, that the love-obedience connection is close to the heat of God.
b. The phrase “being rooted and grounded in love” preceding the phrase “that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God” in Eph 3:17 where the word “that” is a final conjunction denoting purpose and end. The result being the conclusion that the purpose of loving God is to be “filled up to all the fullness of God”
c. The words of John at the end of 1 John 5:3 which say, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” and the words of Jesus in Matt 11:29-30 which says, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light”. How could taking on His yoke cause “rest” for our soul except it be by God’s Spirit “which is love”? Does not “love motivated” obedience make keeping his commandments easier and does it not also lighten the load? Obedience can not only be harder without love, in some cases it may be unlikely! Consider what Jesus said to the Pharisees and experts of the law in Luke 11:42-46: “But woe unto you Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and every herb, and pass over justice and the love of God: but these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Woe unto you Pharisees! for ye love the chief seats in the synagogues, and the salutations in the marketplaces. Woe unto you! for ye are as the tombs which appear not, and the men that walk over (them) know it not. And one of the lawyers answering saith unto him, Teacher, in saying this thou reproachest us also. And he said, Woe unto you lawyers also! for ye load men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.”
d. When we realize the purpose of love is to bring God glory through Christ- like obedience, we will be more likely to prioritize our use of time in a way that best increases our hunger for love of God. (Eph 5:15-17: “Look therefore carefully how ye walk, not as unwise, but as wise; redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.)
e. When we realize the purpose of love is to bring God glory through Christ like obedience, we will be less likely to “neglect” the pursuit of love and less likely to use our time pursuing things that are less important. (Titus 3:9: “but shun foolish questionings, and genealogies, and strifes, and fightings about law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”, Luke 11:42-46 “But woe unto you Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and every herb, and pass over justice and the love of God: but these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”)
f. The warning in Rev 2:4-5 which says. “But I have (this) against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love. Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent.” and the warning in Rev 3:16 which says, “So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.”
4. Why is faith greater than love? I especially liked two statements that you made. They are “obedience is an expression of love” and “faith's nature is to receive, but love gives; and giving is greater than receiving”. My thoughts on the greatness of love are as follows:
a. Love is greater than faith because it is the greater gift. (1 Cor 12:31: ”But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.”)
b. Love is greater than faith because all that we do is “nothing” without love. (Cor 13:1-3: “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. And if I have (the gift of) prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And if I bestow all my goods to feed (the poor), and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.”)
c. Love is greater that faith because it always produces fruit of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 13:4-8: “Love suffereth long, (and) is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Love never faileth: but whether (there be) prophecies, they shall be done away; whether (there be) tongues, they shall cease; whether (there be) knowledge, it shall be done away.”)
d. Love is greater than faith because it brougth God’s Son to us. (1 John 4:16: “ Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him.”)
e. Love is greater than faith because “God is love”. (1 John 4:8: “He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”, 1 John 4:16: “And we know and have believed the love which God hath in us. God is love; and he that abideth in love abideth in God, and God abideth in him.”)
Notes: 1. References to the meaning of Greek words came from Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc. and from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, PC Study Bible formatted Electronic Database. Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved. 2. All scripture quotes are from the ASV unless otherwise indicated
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Entire Thread
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Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Wayne@purpose
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:43 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:39 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Wayne@purpose
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Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:05 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:16 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Wayne@purpose
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Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:11 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:08 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Lynda
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Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:05 AM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Wayne@purpose
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Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:49 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Pilgrim
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Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:05 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Wayne@purpose
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Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:39 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Pilgrim
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Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:31 AM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Wayne@purpose
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Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:59 PM
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Re: Does loving God help us obey Him or does obeying God help us love
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Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:03 PM
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