Originally Posted by Cranmer
Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by Cranmer
All choices made by man are not "free". They are determined by God. Calvin clearly denies that it is the "nature" of man that determines him to good or evil. Rather it is according to God's decree that man acts:
I disagree that man is not "free" to choose according to his nature, which is the established definition of "free agency". It is not "either/or" but BOTH that man is a free agent AND God has decreed everything without exception from eternity. This is what all the Reformed Confessions teach, but more importantly, this is what Scripture teaches, which the Confessions affirm. God decreed the fall of Adam, but both Adam and Eve made their respective choices of disobedience most freely. Of course, the caveat in this example and even more so with Satan, is that there was no prior predisposition to evil as there is with fallen mankind. And anyone who tries to offer an explanation as to how either Satan or the first parents sinned is guilty of sheer unwarranted speculation. Even Jonathan Edwards admitted that there is no answer to be found to that question. Why? Because it is not revealed.

However, what IS revealed is that men are free to choose and do choose that which is most important to them in all situations. But those choices are restricted according to their nature. Any and all sins which I commit have been foreordained by God according to His eternal counsel and good pleasure for His glory. But God's decree in no sense is the ultimate cause of my sinning, else would be guilty of being the Author of Sin, which all but a few individuals throughout history, even the staunchest supralapsarians, have categorically denied. Man is totally responsible for all his choices, AND all man's choices are made freely, AND all man's choices have been foreordained/decreed by God from eternity.

The idea that the cause of the fall is not revealed in Scripture is an outright lie:

Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

1. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit.1 This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.2

See also: WLC 21 | WSC 13


1 Gen. 3:13; 2 Cor. 11:3.

2 Rom. 11:32.

The cause of the fall is God's decree. The Confession affirms that God purposed the fall.

Chapter 3: Of God's Eternal Decree

1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:1 yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.3

See also: WLC 12 | WSC 7


1 Eph. 1:11; Rom. 11:33; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18.

2 James 1:13,17; 1 John 1:5.

3 Acts 2:23; Matt. 17:12; Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33.

God ordained the fall and that is inescapable. Logic requires it since God is omnipotent. To say that the fall just happened apart from God's control and we don't know how it happened is simply pure Arminianism.
Untypically of me, I have included your entire post to illustrate how confused you are and apparently, because of your blindness caused by your "hobby horse" getting in the way, incapable of responding to what people actually write, of which this reply of yours is paradigmatic.

1. I maintain that man is "free" to choose that which is most important to him at any given moment, ACCORDING TO HIS NATURE. Again, I would refer you to a) Scripture and b) the following references: The Bondage of the Will by Luther, The Freedom of the Will by J. Edwards, and Human Nature in its Four-Fold State by T. Boston.

2. In my response to you I made it VERY CLEAR and specifically wrote that "God decreed the fall of Adam". Yet you choose to ignore my statement regarding the ultimate cause of the Fall and go off on one of your typical tirades, totally ignoring what I wrote. Consequently, what you wrote in your reply is irrelevant and thus moot.

3. Once again, affirming that ALL things have been foreordained by God, including the Fall and all its details without exception, Scripture does NOT reveal HOW Adam or Eve chose to disobey God. We know, i.e., 99.9% of those who adhere to biblical, confessional Calvinism, that man's choices are limited according to one's nature. The natural, fallen man only chooses those things which are sinful because of the corruption of his nature. The will has no 'power' of its own and only does that which flows from the influence of the intellect and affections. Thus, because the totally depraved sinner hates God and all that is holy, just and good, he only but freely chooses that which is evil. Contrariwise, the spiritual, regenerate man having been spiritually resurrected has a new nature, the predisposition of which is for God and all that is good. However, a remnant of the old nature remains and consequently, the regenerate man can and does sin.

But, in the case of Adam and Eve, their nature was not sinful, nor was there even the slightest inclination toward sin within them. They were created "very good" and thus their predisposition was totally toward God. That being fact and accepted by 99.9% of biblical, confessional Calvinists, the question of HOW could a person who is totally inclined toward God choose that which is contrary to his nature? The attempt to answer the question by pointing out the outside temptation of Satan fails to satisfy, for again, Adam, and Eve's, total being; intellect, affections and will were only toward God and all that is good. Thus, no outside influence would be able to change that nature. Only God is capable of changing one's nature; e.g., Original Sin where the sin nature was given as penalty for disobedience, and regeneration which is given to the elect due to God's eternal electing love. Thus, to the finite mind which has not been informed, the answer is indiscernible (Deut 29:29). The problem of the origin of sin, which is in regard to Satan's rebellion/disobedience, is even more perplexing and unanswerable because there was no outside influence involved. Yes, God ordained the fall of Satan and those other angels. And yes, God ordained the fall of man. But HOW these actually occurred given the nature of the individuals involved is not revealed and neither you nor Gordon Clark has the answer. Logic is NOT the infallible source of truth. God's inspired written Word is truth (Jh 17:17). And where God has chosen not to reveal certain things, which doubtless is infinite, wisdom and humility submits and silence is embraced... not prideful speculation.

May I suggest you also consider a change of attitude in your participation on this Board? wink

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simul iustus et peccator

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