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#824
Thu Aug 01, 2002 5:07 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615 |
SWW STATES: [color:red]Josh says that he believes that no one can come to God unless God enables him. In this he is right. Where he is in error though is that he believes that it is because of his persevering in the faith, and not voluntarily walking away that he will continue to the end. He thinks a true Christian can lose his salvation. I would not assume to know if Josh is or is not a Christian. I do believe he is in error against the plain teaching of scripture. I know that there are Christians who lack assurance of salvation who are truly saved, but perhaps have been influenced by false teaching. I am afraid that this is what has happened to Josh. If he is a true child of God, God is able show him the truth and make this clear to him.
Let’s look a little closer SWW! (you will need to re-read all the posts above/below to get their full context). The list is not comprehensive, but enough to give you a general gist:
Quotes by JoshT
[color:red]Against, Perseverance of God in the Saints and God’s sovereignty:
1. This does not guarantee that a believer cannot walk away from God. If this did happen, that person would be cut off from by God the Father (John 15), for He is sovereign and has the right to do so with what is His.
Here God is NOT sovereign in His power of salvation, for one may walk away and ONLY then is God seen to be sovereign to execute justice??? Thus, JoshT sees himself kept by his own works, which is denied in Scripture: Rom 11: 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
2. And yes, Christ promises believers His new name. And? He also promises us eternal life, but the promises only apply to those who do not fall away.
So, I am saved today, the next hour I am lost, but now I pray and I am saved again, O’h, just sinned again, I am now lost, I pray an hour later and I am saved again…….I go in and out of eternity??? SO God is only sovereign in salvation when I obey??? This is works righteousness!!!
3. As far as what "draw" means. Yes, I am well aware that God's conviction and pulling us towards Christ are very strong, but nothing in scripture indicates that He cannot be resisted, as I pointed out from Acts 7:21.
Here God is seen as VERY strong, but not sovereign??? Thus, once again MAN”S sovereignty and God’s puppetry is exalted!!
4. He recreated me by His grace, but He also requires that I continue in it (Acts 13:43).
Salvation by GRACE plus CONTINUAL WORKS. And of course OUR sovereignty in the matter is greater than God’s as seen by the examples above???
5. I said that there were conditions if a person would be given to Christ…. God foresees our choices, not makes our choices, and it is on this basis that He chooses us so that we can accept Him.
Works Righteousness!
[color:red]Works are exalted above grace:
1. I believe that God gives a person to Christ when they humble themselves and repent when convicted by the Holy Spirit. This passage does not say that a person cannot resist the Holy Spirit's conviction. In fact, the scriptures affirm that this already occurs. Act 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
We will not HUMBLE OURSELVES or REPENT (2 Tim 2:24-26) until changed BY the Holy Spirit, as Paul….. The unsaved do resist UNTIL THEY ARE MADE WILLING in the day of HIS POWER (but this is far more than just conviction), and the scriptures teach that all the elect will finally and fully be saved and not resist ultimately to their own destruction for Christ will not lose even one of His elect!.
2. I too believe that a man cannot be saved unless God draws him first. And just as God's many promises of blessing to Israel (Deuteronomy 7:13, 30:16 ect...) were contingent on their obedience to the voice of God, so is the promise of the resurrection of the righteous.
FAITH plus CONTINUAL OBEDIENCE = salvation? But, if one is truly saved he will desire to obey and has been granted the grace to do so. Not all Israel was elect!
2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
3. The first premise is only partially correct, for while God does desire that men be saved, He also desires that they do so willingly.
So, man’s will is SOVEREIGN? Man does accept God’s grace willingly, but they ONLY become willing in the DAY OF HIS POWER.
4. Yielding to God is not a work, just as believing in God is not a work.
Thus JoshT’s order of salvation, I YIELD, and then GOD RESPONDS. So God is my puppet??
[color:red]Denial of God’s elective purpose in salvation:
1. The Bible never indicates that God is determined to irresistably draw anyone to Him, He does wish to draw people to Himself, and He no doubt could do it irresistably if that were His will, but this is not indicated in scripture.
So election does not exist?
2. I see nothing in the scripture to indicate that a man cannot fully and finally resist the Holy Spirit (they are only elect if they do not). I also see plenty of proof that they can fall away afterwards.
May God have mercy and give JoshT grace!
Reformed and Always Reforming,
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Entire Thread
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Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:42 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Pilgrim
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Wed Jun 19, 2002 5:26 PM
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There cannot be two books of life
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:36 PM
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Re: There cannot be two books of life
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Pilgrim
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:29 PM
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Protestant doesn't necessarily mean Calvinist
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:20 PM
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Re: Protestant doesn't necessarily mean Calvinist
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:54 PM
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That doesn't address the issue
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:51 PM
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Re: That doesn't address the issue
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:42 PM
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Re: That doesn't address the issue
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:44 PM
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A Minor Point
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:13 PM
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Re: There cannot be two books of life
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Wes
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:17 PM
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Changing a book doesn't change God
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:44 PM
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Ordinances Annulled
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:56 PM
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Re: Ordinances Annulled
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:32 PM
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Consider this Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 12:18 AM
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Re: Consider this Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:20 PM
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Re: Consider this Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:56 PM
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Re: Consider this Josh
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 2:57 AM
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A consideration for you
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 01, 2002 3:30 PM
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Sanctification
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lazarus
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Mon Jul 01, 2002 5:12 PM
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Sanctification in Hebrews 10:29
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:28 PM
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Original Sin = No Free Will
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Wes
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:46 PM
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You misunderstand my position brother
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:19 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Wes
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:35 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:54 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Wes
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:04 AM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:25 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Ehud
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Tue Jul 09, 2002 12:12 AM
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The greatest commandment
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:16 PM
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Re: You misunderstand my position brother
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Wes
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:15 AM
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Ryle on Assurance
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:10 PM
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Re: Ryle on Assurance
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Wes
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 4:47 PM
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Justification and sanctification are inseparable
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:22 PM
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Justification and sanctification are inseparable but distinct
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:42 PM
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The sovereignty of God
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:20 PM
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Re: The sovereignty of God
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Wes
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Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:54 PM
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Meaning of Nothing
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:00 PM
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Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 01, 2002 4:41 PM
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More comments to consider
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 02, 2002 12:40 AM
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John Gill's commentary
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:39 PM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:52 AM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:27 PM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 09, 2002 3:09 AM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:51 PM
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Re: Meaning of "separate"
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lazarus
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:55 PM
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What God wills
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:05 AM
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Re: What God wills
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Ehud
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:28 PM
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Re: What God wills
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Anonymous
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:57 PM
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Re: What God wills
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lazarus
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:43 PM
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Conditions and works
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:10 PM
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Re: Conditions and works
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lazarus
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 11:57 PM
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God not a respecter...
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lazarus
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 11:57 PM
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Re: God not a respecter...
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:19 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Ricky
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:26 AM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:38 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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J_Edwards
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:41 PM
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One may lose more than the tree of life
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:24 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Ricky
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:32 AM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Kez
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:43 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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chestnutmare
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:06 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:38 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:54 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:43 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:02 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:13 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Tom
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Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:13 AM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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carlos
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:44 PM
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Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:18 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:18 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:12 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:49 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:56 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:37 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:16 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:47 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:53 PM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:46 AM
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Re: Characteristics of sheep
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carlos
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:17 PM
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Merits vs. Conditions
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:54 PM
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Re: Election....
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carlos
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:23 PM
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Re: Election....
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:14 PM
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Re: Election....
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carlos
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 4:37 PM
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Re: Election....
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carlos
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 3:23 PM
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Re: Election....
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:05 PM
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BUSY....
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carlos
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:24 PM
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Re: perseverance
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carlos
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:07 PM
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Re: perseverance
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:12 PM
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The Good Shepherd?
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:24 PM
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You sorely misjudge me
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:38 PM
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Re: You sorely misjudge me
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lazarus
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:21 PM
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In reply...
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:30 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:42 AM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:19 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Wed Oct 02, 2002 6:15 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:52 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Ehud
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Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:54 PM
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Some questions
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Anonymous
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Sun Aug 04, 2002 11:20 PM
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Some answers
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:26 PM
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Re: perseverance
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carlos
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 3:03 AM
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Forgot "DO NOT"
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carlos
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 2:16 PM
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Hope he returns
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:08 PM
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Haven't left, just been busy
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 2:00 PM
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Re: Haven't left, just been busy
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:10 PM
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Re: perseverance
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:01 PM
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Rebuttal on Perseverance
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:57 PM
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Re: Rebuttal on Perseverance
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fredman
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:14 PM
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In reply...
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:09 AM
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Re: In reply...
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fredman
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Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:25 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:06 PM
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Re: In reply...
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fredman
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Wed Oct 02, 2002 5:56 PM
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conditional salvation and God's warnings
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Anonymous
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Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:53 PM
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Re: conditional salvation and God's warnings
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carlos
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Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:49 PM
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Re: conditional salvation and God's warnings
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fredman
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Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:25 AM
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Re: Merits vs. Conditions
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carlos
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:21 PM
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Glorification
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:10 PM
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Re: Glorification
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carlos
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:55 AM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:18 PM
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Redirection
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:25 PM
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You read between the lines
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:00 PM
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Re: You read between the lines
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:38 PM
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How a man is saved
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:08 PM
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Re: How a man is saved
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:27 PM
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What "save yourselves" actually means
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:55 PM
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Josh You Are Soooooo Confused
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:30 PM
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In reply...
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:49 PM
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Re: In reply...
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J_Edwards
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:04 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Ehud
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Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:47 PM
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Resisting God
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Paul_S
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:31 AM
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Re: Resisting God
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:01 PM
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Ambiguity and Contradictions
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Paul_S
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:28 PM
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Clarification
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:53 PM
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Contradictions vs. Comfort
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Paul_S
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 4:10 AM
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Your comfort must be scriptural
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 03, 2002 6:45 PM
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Re: Your comfort must be scriptural
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lazarus
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 12:45 PM
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Re: Your comfort must be scriptural
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carlos
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Sat Jul 06, 2002 2:57 AM
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Conditions vs. Performance
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:44 PM
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Getting personal
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:19 PM
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Re: Getting personal
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:06 PM
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Re: Your comfort must be scriptural
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Anonymous
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 5:21 PM
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Re: Your comfort must be scriptural
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Pilgrim
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Thu Jul 04, 2002 9:39 PM
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What else could Saul do...?
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:43 PM
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Re: What else could Saul do...?
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:11 PM
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Resisting the Holy Spirit
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:03 PM
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Re: Resisting the Holy Spirit
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:50 PM
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Re: Resisting the Holy Spirit
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 5:16 AM
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Recreated or Born Again?
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Wes
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Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:10 PM
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Re: Recreated or Born Again?
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:59 PM
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Re: Resisting God
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lazarus
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:25 PM
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Redirection
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:13 PM
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Re: Resisting God
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Tom
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Sun Jul 21, 2002 5:59 PM
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Re: Resisting God
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Anonymous
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:01 PM
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Re: Resisting God
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 4:48 PM
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Joshism & Revelation 22:19
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:04 AM
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Take God's warnings seriously
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:40 PM
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Josh you need to repent
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:57 PM
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Josh if you are coorect THEN
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J_Edwards
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Wed Jun 26, 2002 12:54 AM
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Re: Josh if you are coorect THEN
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:03 PM
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Re: Josh if you are coorect THEN
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J_Edwards
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Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:54 AM
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Right...
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:57 PM
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Re: Right...
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J_Edwards
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Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:54 PM
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Hebrews 6
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:52 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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J_Edwards
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Mon Jul 08, 2002 10:03 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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Anonymous
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:32 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:51 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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carlos
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Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:36 PM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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J_Edwards
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:53 AM
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Re: Hebrews 6
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carlos
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 7:01 PM
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The Grip of God
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Anonymous
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:56 PM
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Re: Josh you need to repent
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:56 PM
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Re: Josh you need to repent
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J_Edwards
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:44 PM
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Re: Josh you need to repent
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:31 PM
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Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:43 PM
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Re: Josh
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 10:07 AM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:40 PM
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Re: Josh
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:49 PM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:38 PM
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Re: Josh
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:40 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:44 PM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:28 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:22 PM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:07 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:33 AM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:20 AM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:23 AM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Fri Oct 11, 2002 2:49 PM
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Re: Josh
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Ehud
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Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:19 PM
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Re: Josh
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lazarus
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Sat Oct 12, 2002 10:50 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Sun Aug 04, 2002 10:41 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:31 PM
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Re: Josh
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:12 PM
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Re: Josh
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Anonymous
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:37 PM
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Re: Josh
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lazarus
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:02 PM
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Re: Josh
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carlos
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Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:55 PM
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The foreknowledge and sovereignty of God
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:17 PM
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In my defense...
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Anonymous
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:14 PM
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Re: In my defense...
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:50 PM
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In reply...
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Anonymous
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:17 PM
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Re: In reply...
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J_Edwards
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Tue Aug 27, 2002 7:55 PM
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Re: In reply...
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Anonymous
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Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:35 PM
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Re: In reply...
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J_Edwards
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Sun Oct 13, 2002 1:36 PM
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Re: In my defense...
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fredman
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 3:09 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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li0scc0
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Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:21 PM
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Re: Revelation 22:19 Contradicts Calvinist Doctrine
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:32 PM
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Re: Changing a book doesn't change God
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042Dave
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Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:10 PM
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There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
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