rjskal wrote:<br>"I don't understand your position that God cannot be sovereign and still allow us to forfeit our salvation. He doesn't lose any of his supreme, permanent authority by allowing believers the option of turning away from Him."<br><br>In response to what Pilgrim wrote:<br>"The problem with the semi-Pelagian and Arminian view is that what God does throughout eternity is determined not by His own eternal, immutable council, but by whatsoever the creature decides to do."<br><br>But God's predestinating of men to salvation is based on His foreknowledge of people and future events (1 Peter 1:2). So while all ultimate authority rests with God to do with as He pleases, the scripture makes it plain that He plans out the salvation of His elect according to foreknowledge of them.<br><br>IRT:<br>"The caveat to this entire view is that it elevates the "free-will" of man (i.e., the ability to choose contrary to his nature, which even God is unable to do) to the loftiest place."<br><br>God cannot go against His nature because it is divine. But men can. Did Adam have a sin nature before he sinned? Did Lucifer have a sin nature before he fell by his pride? Your argument does not follow, you might as well say, "men cannot lie, for even God is unable to do that!"<br><br>IRT:<br>"Thus, it is impossible for God to actually 'know' what will take place at any given time since the creature is able to change his/her mind within any given set of circumstances; he/she being able to choose that which is contrary to nature. Therefore, God can only know after the fact (an actuality) and this makes the creature the 'sovereign' and not God, Who is bound by the creatures decisions."<br><br>And you think I limit God's sovereignty. Just because you can't understand or don't see how God can precisely know the future actions of a being with free will doesn't mean that He can't. How do you know what God can or can't know? I invite you to show me any scriptural proof of this off the wall theory. The only authority man has over his own soul is what God has given him, nothing more; so God is still the sovereign, though He has willingly delegated a limited amount of control to us.<br><br>IRT:<br>"The Scriptures, however, everywhere speak of God as the Sovereign Ruler and Creator of the universe. It is HE Who has determined all things according to His will (determinate council, good pleasure, etc.). See Ps. 33:11; 135:6; Prov 19:21; 21:30; Isa 11:1-16; 41:6; 43:13; 46:9, 10; Dan 4:35; Acts 4:27, 28; 13:48; Rom 11:33-36; Eph 1:9-11; Heb 6:17; Rev 19:6; et al An no one can change what He has foreordained."<br><br>When the Lord has fully determined to do a thing, it cannot be stopped by any force in the universe. But God permits men the ability to violate some things in His will; Luke 13:34 provides a good example of how men can go against God's wishes.<br><br>IRT:<br>"Lastly, determinism is at the very foundation of biblical prophesy. God, through His appointed prophets, spoke in time past of what would come to pass; authoritatively and infallibly. Unless God was sovereign in both power and authority and by His providence determined and controlled ALL THINGS the likelihood that anything which was prophesied as taking place in the future would take place would be nil. For all it would take to prevent a prophesy from occurring would be the 'free-will' decision of one single man."<br><br>Just because God can change and control circumstances to bring specific things to pass does not indicate that He chooses to determine every aspect of every person's life down to the minutest detail. That logic does not follow. Just because God can do a thing doesn't mean that He necessarily will.<br><br><br>In Christ,<br>Josh