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Evangelizing our children #10006
Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:54 PM
Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:54 PM
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MHeath Offline OP
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Okay.. I have a question here. More like I need to know if I did okay or not. Also, I consider it a bit of a praise!

Today, my son, for some reason has been fascinated with Jesus. He talked about Him quite a bit during our errands today, asking, "is Jesus coming?" and this evening it was even more intense. His name is Ben by the way. He started off by asking me at dinner if Jesus is here. I told him that He is here, and he asked me, "is he in that chair?" Pointing at one of the empty chairs at the table. Well.. I wasn't sure what to say, so I said, "sure.. and He is everywhere, even in me!"

So, he took a piece of his sandwich and put it in front of "Jesus," and said, "Jesus.. eat your dinner right now!" I told him sternly that we NEVER NEVER speak to Jesus like that! So he said, "I'm sorry Jesus." (I was starting to feel a bit self conscious with Jesus sitting right at the table! lol.) ANYWhoo.. he said he really wanted to give Jesus a present and feed Him. So I told him that that was a very good thing to do, because God told us to "give to the Lord the firstfruits of all our increase." So then I had to explain "increase" and "firstfruits."

Then, Benjamin brought up the subject of sin. We had already established that sin is a "monster." So they understand that sin is very bad. I explained to him again that sin "hurts God's heart." So Ben said, "I don't want to hurt Jesus, I LOVE Jesus." I felt like this was the right time to explain repentance eh? So I also explained to him that when we "sin," we only deserve to go to a place called "Hell." I told him it is a very very very bad bad place. He asked me what it is like there. I told him there was fire and that it hurts a LOT. He was visibly shaken. It sort of freaked him out. Then I told him that Jesus came here, and DIED, and BLED on the cross, to pay the penalty for our sin (I need to go back and explain it again to him.. I am not sure he understands penalty.. what I SHOULD have said .. what that Jesus died in order to be punished FOR us) and I said.. and guess what?? He rose from the DEAD! so that we could live for Him here, He could live in us, and so we could go to heaven when we die. And I also assured him that he was right to be sorry for hurting God, and that when he disobeys momma and daddy, he is sinning against God too, not just us.

After hearing that Jesus died, he said, "so we have to save Jesus!" I said, "NO.. Jesus saved US!"

By now, everyone was done with dinner, and the kids went downstairs to play. Ben and his sister Becky came BOOKing back up the stairs and asked, "Can Jesus come downstairs and play with us???"

I said, "of course" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL

So here is the thing. I did not try and lead him into any kind of prayer. He is only four years old. But I also don't want to let this go if I shouldn't. I was so excited about our talk, and was praying for wisdom the whole time LOL. I was SO not expecting this! But even our Becky, who is three seemed to have some understanding of what I was saying. They both agreed about the "monster" sin. They said, "it will GETCHA!" lol.. out of the mouths of babes eh?

I am tired, so I hope I made sense lol.

Anyway.. is four years old too young?? I really think that I see God working here.. I am just not sure what to do.
Thank you all in advance for your input on this <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Michele

A Small Children's Catechism [Re: MHeath] #10007
Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:14 PM
Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:14 PM

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Michele,
How wonderful that your children are so open to learn about God. Be encouraged! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/joy.gif" alt="" /> You might want to start with a simple Children's Catechism.
http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/childcat.html
This is the paedo version, but is nearly identical to Baptist beliefs except the Baptist version would refer to Baptism and the Lord's supper as ordinances, not sacraments. You should have no problem using it.

Re: A Small Children's Catechism #10008
Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:02 PM
Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:02 PM
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MHeath Offline OP
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Hi Susan <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for responding! I went to the site, and thank you for that. I am not familiar at all with catechisms though. The only thing I remember in my youth, were classmates going to catholic "catechism" after school lol.

I think I will ask the question out here about the confessions etc. Because I don't understand it. Please no one throw rotten tomatoes at me okay? Fresh are okay.. we are out anyway. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My husband asked his son the other night if he remembered his confirmation. Those children from his first marriage grew up Lutheran. He said he did not remember anything. He knows nothing of the gospel, and has no basis for religion. He did not say that verbatim. It was more like, "I dunno, I dunno, I dunno." The only thing he has surmised from his bible reading (which consists of the last verse of the last book of the bible, in which he feels it is unscriptural to help people.

He is terribly hurt by the church's completely abandoning their family when their mother breathed the word "divorce." I guess the pastor of their lutheran church literally just got up and left the house. So.. I am rambling.. sorry.

What I am getting at, is my husband was asking him his catechism questions. He doesn't remember anything. It means absolutely nothing to him. I think the opposite is true too in some cases where someone holds on to the fact that they have remembered the questions and answers perfectly, and thereby are saved or are okay with God.

So what is the purpose of a catechism? Is this a guide for me to teach my children? or is it literally to teach them the questions and answers? What is the value of teaching them the answers? I am not asking from a certain perspective. I am literally asking the question because I do not know, and am very interested in an answer.

Also, that is the same idea behind my wondering about the canons etc. Many of you all here refer to the Westminster confession of faith, the long and the short, or some canon or creed. I know that I do quote spurgeon sometimes, but it is to explain somethign that I am trying to say because I stumble over my words, and when I type, many times I am all over the place, and he is much more eloquent. He makes the point. But I think i have noticed that some refer to the WCF, or whatever and not the scripture. If anyone is interested, I will find and post this next item. I read an article here about the passage in Rev. about the churches. There was a mention about being "blotted out of the book of life." The writer said, "Calvin says that we will not be blotted out." And that was the last mention of it! Whuh?

This is what I am wondering about. Why are the confessions, and canons etc. put so high. I am not accusing anyone in the least. If there is an answer, than maybe it's a good one. I guess I'll think about it if anyone does answer. There is much scripture used in this forum and in reformed/calvinist circles, but it seems to me, that just as much is quoted from these other works.

Is this right? Just wondering <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Michele

Re: A Small Children's Catechism [Re: MHeath] #10009
Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:27 PM
Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:27 PM
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Michele,

First of all you should go here: Read about and download Refcon3. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now, as to your specific questions:

1) QUESTION: What authority do the Confessions & Catechisms have?
ANSWER: They are secondary in authority to that of the Scriptures. As the Westminster Confession of Faith puts it, the Bible is the "sole and final authority in all matters of faith and practice". Thus we are to read all man-made documents in light of the Bible, God's inerrant and infallible Word. Accepting that as a given, the Confessions and Catechisms are summaries of the Bible's teaching which have been written down for our instruction and edification. ALL men have a "creed" (credo=I Believe). For example, if someone should ask you, "Who is Jesus Christ?", the answer you give in reply would be your "creed" concerning the Lord Christ. Thus these historical documents are a great aid in both educating us in the truth of the Scripture's teaching and to guard against heresy.

2) QUESTION: How are we to use these Confessions and Catechisms for our own instruction as well as that of our children?
ANSWER: They are to be used as a "tool" to instruct us so that we may come to a true knowledge of Christ and what God requires of us who believe to live a holy life before God.

Now, what I have to say next is something which I am quite adamant about because I feel it is fundamental to the rearing of children. Some of the Catechisms, e.g., the Heidelberg Catechism are written from the perspective of a believer; the questions and answers are written in the FIRST PERSON. It is here that I believe that many churches have erred in teaching children for the presume the salvation of their offspring and thus the children are subject to having a false assurance given to them. Therefore I much prefer to use a Catechism that is written in the THIRD PERSON to teach children. Why? because they are objective rather than subjective in their teaching. Practically speaking, one should teach the truths of God's Word objectively, i.e., the doctrinal truths are made known regardless of the spiritual state of the catechumen. Then it is up to the Holy Spirit to apply these truths to the hearts of the student as they are impressed upon their minds by the teacher. In this respect, I believe that the Westminster Shorter/Larger Catechisms are superior for the purpose of teaching children.

I have lots more to say about the teaching of children, but perhaps that would be better reserved for another topic. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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Re: A Small Children's Catechism [Re: Pilgrim] #10010
Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:54 PM
Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:54 PM
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MHeath Offline OP
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Thank you very much Pilgrim <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> that made total sense. I would actually very much like to hear what you have to say on the rearing of children. Tell me what topic to make and I will make it. I am in a real delicate time right now I believe with my children.. they are 4,3,2 and 3 months. Now is when I need to settle some of these matters.

I agree with you on the matter of teaching in the third person too. That makes sense to me.

The idea of the westminster confession of faith, and creeds etc do appeal to me quite a bit. There are so many churches and people out there that ascribe to a little of this and a little of that. Like, one guy I know, believes in predestination/election, and the security of the security of the believer, yet that one can lose their salvation, and he speaks in tongues. He is not into the Hebrew Roots thing, but still calls Jesus "Messiah" and talks like he is a messianic Jew, though he is not a Jew. I am NOT saying anything against messianic Jews at all. There is much to be said on that topic, but it's not the topic of this thread. The point that I am making is there seems to be a mish mash of doctrine there, and it doesn't make sense. That's how it is with so many I have come across. So I do like the idea of one set doctrine. Although, I might add, that there are in fact things that i strongly disagree with in the WCF. I am comfortable with disagreeing though LOL..

Anyway, thank you.

Michele

Re: A Small Children's Catechism [Re: MHeath] #10011
Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:32 PM
Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:32 PM
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gotribe Offline

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Michele,

I want to invite you to participate in the study of the Shorter Catechism here on the Highway. We're still on Question two and you can go back and read what was discussed on question one. Our family is just getting ready to sit down together and watch The Two Towers so I can't post much right now, but I do mean to come back later and tell you what the study of the catechism has meant in our own family. I hope to get to that soon.

Kim (gotribe)


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: A Small Children's Catechism [Re: gotribe] #10012
Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:50 PM
Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:50 PM
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MHeath Offline OP
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Hello Kim <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the invite! I just went over and read both threads. I feel as though I am finally sitting down at a steak dinner! I am also very encouraged to teach my children this "Small Children's Catechism."

I would VERY much like to hear what this study has meant to your family.

I don't know that I will participate in the discussion there, but I am going to keep reading for sure. There was a proverb that caught my eye. I read them a lot anyway, and when i was first born again, I took the call to seek wisdom very seriously. But it caught my eye because of the promise..it is Prov. 4:11-12 I have taught you in the way of wisdom; I have led you in right paths. When you walk, your steps will not be hindered, And when you run, you will not stumble." I do stumble quite a bit, and I am still walking slowly.. verrrrrry slowly lol. That's why I probably won't participate LOL. BUT.. I am greatly encouraged! and what a promise from God eh? When we cry ot for and seek wisdom etc.. we will not stumble and our steps will not be hindered.

I want so much for my children to learn the right way FIRST. Not have to wade through all the muck of what is modern religion. I know it is God who ultimately draws us and calls us etc. But also, Jesus said that anyone who causes one of these little ones to sin, it is better if a millstone were hung around their neck and to be cast into the sea!

In the discussion I was reading tonight..I especially like the idea that I can teach my daughters that we can cook dinner and do the dishes and dust.. all to the glory of God! And teach my son that going to work, and providing for his family, and all that goes with being a man, can be done for the glory of God too.

Sorry to go on and on. I would very much like to hear your experience of your family in studying these things. Thanks again for the invite!

Michele

Re: A Small Children's Catechism [Re: MHeath] #10013
Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:29 AM
Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:29 AM

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Michele I know that both Susan and Pilgrim has given very good links to some good stuff now the Baptist in me also wants to get a word in. Here is the url to the Children's Prove it Catechism written for Baptist Children. This is a program that the children can interact with and is written for easy understanding. http://www.vor.org/rbdisk/proveit.htm

I can't add to anything you've read here. When I was a young catechumen in the Lutheran church I like your husband was taught the doctrines and like your husband remembered nothing when I was older. Part of the reason is that the church I went to was what we now call liberal(they called themselves progressive) so they didn't do what I would do now if I had young minds full of mush ready to be molded around and that is make them memorize the questions and answers.


Anyway try the program if you so desire it is freeware.


"The problem with Baptists is that some of them weren't held down long enough<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

Has family devotions been discussed on The Highway [Re: MHeath] #10014
Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:01 AM
Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:01 AM
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It seems to be a lost discipline among Christian families. However, those few in my church who are diligent and faithful in getting the family together for daily family devotions have been blessed by them.

Last edited by John_C; Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:02 AM.

John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Re: Has family devotions been discussed on The Highway [Re: John_C] #10015
Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:37 AM
Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:37 AM
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MHeath Offline OP
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Whenever I listen to or read someone who is very spiritual, almost always they tell that their father or mother taught them the scriptures every day. Corrie Ten Boom, Elizabeth Elliot are two right off the top of my head.

My husband is not a believer (or if he is.. there has been no spiritual growth for about 30 years or so.) He is much older than I am.. and I have only known him for about 5 1/2 years too.. but anyway. I guess God knows.

I think I would like to do this catechism during the day. I also think it would help my husband feel a little bit better about all this "religion stuff".. because it might be a familiar concept to him.

I also think that doing these will open up a dialogue with my children. And we can work on each concept as we go. And discuss it throughout the day. I have been occasionally reading proverbs to them, and they are memorizing verses, but this is more of a 'regime" instead of just random, here and there teaching. They have memorized Psalm 8.. the entire chapter, so I am confident that they can memorize this. I'm excited <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Michele

Re: Has family devotions been discussed on The Highway [Re: MHeath] #10016
Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:19 PM
Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:19 PM
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Oh, Michele! I wish I had time to develop my thoughts more, but I do want to at least get started sharing with you about how the catechism has impacted our family.

So, very briefly and to the bottom line. The most important, immediate result of the study of the catechism with my youngest was the impact it had on ME. The purposeful, intentional study of the catechism cannot happen apart from the study of God's Word. I found that as I was preparing to teach my son, God used it to transform my thinking and to renew MY mind. I began to think in a more biblical way, which in turn equipped me to teach truths to my children in ways that I had never before experienced.

Sam memorized the questions and answers and one scripture proof for each of the questions. I know that there are some he has forgotten entirely, some he remembers imperfectly, and some that he really didn't understand at the time, but God is really bringing fruit in my son's life through the study of the catechism. We talk about spiritual things as a natural course of conversation in our home and he is able to make very astute observations.

Just yesterday in science, we were studying the Big Bang theory. We reviewed the Scientific Method and talked about how we test our theories: our theories must be both observable and repeatable. I was telling him that the Big Bang Theory and Evolution are not provable because the origins were not observed by anyone, no matter how authoritatively the scientists talk about what they "know."

Sam looked at me and said, "But Mom, it was observed! God was there and He wrote it down!" And this came out of the study of the catechism; not just from one question and answer, but from what it communicates about God's eternality, His omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, and about the reliability of Scripture, and the role of the Trinity in Creation. . .it goes on and on.

The study of the catechism will first change YOU and then as you teach your children you will be teaching them more than dogma. You will be helping them develop a Biblical worldview.

Some side benefits just from an educational aspect: the way the Q and A's are set up as a question and the question is restated in the answer is an excellent way to demonstrate to your children how to really read a question and then teaches them to use the question as a tool to help them answer the question. It is great preparation for essay tests because it teaches you to slow down and discern what the question is really asking of you and then to use the question to provide the answer. It demands orderly and logical thinking.

I could go on and on, but we're getting ready to go out and run some Saturday errands.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

Kim


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: Has family devotions been discussed on The Highway [Re: MHeath] #10017
Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:11 PM
Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:11 PM

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Quote
I think I would like to do this catechism during the day. I also think it would help my husband feel a little bit better about all this "religion stuff".. because it might be a familiar concept to him.


That sounds great Michele! Our church uses it for the youngest ones. I was amazed to sit in on their class one day. The teacher sat in a chair beside a chart on the wall. The 4 year old girl sat down in a small chair beside the teacher's and the teacher began with the first question all the way to the newest answer they had learned. She and the other 5 yr old boy were able to recite a long string of the answers perfectly! For the newest one they had just learned, they got to pick out a sticker and put it onto their chart.

I didn't teach my children this since I did't know anything about catechisms when they were small, but I used Spurgeon's Catechism with my middle school boys I taught several years ago when we were still in a Baptist church. Those kids thought it was really cool learning the answers.
Here is something I read about Spurgeon teaching the confession and catechism to his church children.

Quote
The Bible and the Content of Spurgeon's Faith
One of the deepest convictions of Spurgeon's life was that there is a continuity in the work of God and that continuity centers round the body of truth which lies in Scripture, 'the faith which was once delivered unto the saints'. He believed that at the Protestant Reformation God had restored that body of truth and that it had been summarized in a masterly form in the creeds and catechisms of the Reformers and Puritans. This deposit of saving truth has to be passed on faithfully from one generation to another. The nineteenth-century obsession with originality he regarded as a sin when it was found among the professed custodians of the Word of God. 1 For him the apostle's command was still binding, 'the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also' (2 Timothy 2:2).

In 1855 Spurgeon reprinted the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith--the confession which belongs to the same family as the Westminster Confession--and when the Metropolitan Tabernacle was being built in 1859 he had a copy placed under the foundation stone. Instead of adopting the diluted creeds which marked the last century he held the deposit of doctrine that arose out of the Reformation as a heritage of biblical truth to be preserved and handed on to coming generations. For the same reason he had the children and young people of his congregation taught the shorter catechism of 1647, revised only on the point of baptism. Referring to this fact, he said in 1866: 'The fashion is to laugh at this book and to say it is out of date, and so on. Well, I should like to see someone write a better summary of Scripture doctrine'.2 Similarly, he did not hesitate to tell members that if they did not believe doctrines explicit in the Confession of faith they could not remain members 'with a clear conscience'.1

2 Speeches of C. H. Spurgeon (London: Passmore and Alabaster, 1878), p. 64 'Our children who have learned the Westminster Assembly's Confession of Faith", know more about the doctrines of grace and the Bible than hundreds of grown up people who attend a ministry which very eloquently teaches nothing'.MTP, vol. 12, p. 430

From p. 13, 14 Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism by Iain H. Murray

Re: Evangelizing our children [Re: MHeath] #10018
Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:50 PM
Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:50 PM

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Dear Michele:

I really enjoyed reading your wonderful post on Ben's interest in the Lord. It reminded me of an account that Jonathan Edwards gave of the conversion of a young girl, who I think was also 4 yrs old, whose family attended his chruch. I don't think four is too young and I searched and searched a disc I have of Edwards works because he discusses why he believed the girls conversion was real, but I just couldn't find it.

The disc I have was made by a person who isn't too reliable and the search feature doesn't work normally and so I always have to play with it to make it work so I was disappionted that I couldn't find it, but it seems that you have gotten some very good advice on how to proceed and I especially liked Pigrims' words on being careful not to foster presumption by using the wrong Catechism.

Anyway, how wonderful that the Lord should work in you son and daughters life this way and I also thought the answers you gave to his questions were very touching.

May He continue to work in him and you,

In Him,

Gerry

Re: Evangelizing our children #10019
Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:55 AM
Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:55 AM
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MHeath Offline OP
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Hi Gerry <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you! That was sort of what I was hoping to hear lol. The catechisms seem to answer all the questions too. Of course there is much more to them..

I tried downloading the "Proveit" one, but I need my husband to help with it. I don't know how to make it work LOL. But I also printed out the other one.

Anyway.. thanks for the encouragement. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> May God bless you and yours!

Michele

Re: Evangelizing our children [Re: MHeath] #10020
Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:25 AM
Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:25 AM
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MHeath Offline OP
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Hey Neat.. guess what, it works! LOL. My husband helped me get it working. He's such a whiz.

And.. not only do the kids think it's neat, but my husband does too! That's a good thing. They want to "discuss" the answers so far too.. so I better git. Thank you Sanctus Stultus!!

Michele

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