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#10170 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:47 PM Divorce  

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First, I want to say I am glad to be here.
I first found the-highway through gospelcom.net
many years ago. The best article that I have read
about the 5 points of Calvinism is posted on your
site. http://www.the-highway.com/FivePoints.html

I don’t like to label myself as a Calvinist, since
I follow Jesus, not Calvin, although the concept of the 5 points
does come from the Word or is used to explain
portions of the Word concerning Salvation and God’s
Sovereignty.

The reason that I am posting is to see what your collective
views are on divorce or defense of marriage. Regardless of
what you have read in various church doctrines, I want to know
what your biblically discerning opinion is on this subject concerning
the material listed below.

My defense of marriage is based on Scripture alone
and is exemplified on these 2 web sites.

http://promarriage.com is written by me several years
ago in need of some minor revisions.

and also

http://www.anabaptists.org/books/mdr/

I am not an Anabaptist, in fact the person that wrote the Anabaptist
book has some major misconceptions about Calvinism, but the
topic I want to stay focused on is divorce/marriage.
I cannot find any errors in his book regarding his views
on marriage and divorce in direct relation to the Word of God.

Let us also discuss anything you believe to be errant or contradictory
to the Word of God in relation to those papers/books.

#10171 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:32 PM Re: Divorce  
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Hi there..

First of all, I need to say that I do not speak for anyone here on the board. Only for myself.

I usually stumble over my words, and write (and say) things that I regret when I am seriously cheezed off, so I am not going to thoroughly respond to this post. The first link was not exactly a thorough treatment of this subject.

The second link is very thorough. I have been through this before.. and what I have to say is that you guys are a buncha FREAKS! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/whatsgoingonhere.gif" alt="" /> I'll probably get in trouble for that.. so I'll technically say sorry. Bummer there is no smilie that is sticking out their tongue! tongue

Michele

Last edited by MHeath; Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:40 PM.
#10172 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:46 PM Re: Divorce [Re: MHeath]  

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Sounds like a heart condition MHeath.
Would you care to share how your viewpoint differs
from the scriptures referenced on those pages?
or
Are you just speaking from emotion rather than logic
and literal translation of the Word?

Yes, I am a Jesus Freak, huge DC Talk Fan.
Thanks <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by madmax; Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:47 PM.
#10173 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:51 PM Re: Divorce  
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MHeath Offline
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I am still cheezed off. If I am going to write anything it won't be now. This is not from emotional circumstances.. but I am emotional about it for sure. I have studied the scriptures for myself on the matter.. though I am not any kind of biblical scholar or super spiritual "jesus freak" like you are <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Michele

#10174 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:57 PM Re: Divorce [Re: MHeath]  

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Yes, this appears to be a highly emotional subject for
you. The subject of divorce is so power it often divides
families, friends and even entire churches. So I
can understand your reluctance to discuss it.

I thank Jesus for my righteousness for without him
I have none. I wonder if that is what you meant by
"super" spiritual. If it is, then all Christians are
made "supernaturally” spiritual by Christ <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

#10175 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:00 PM Re: Divorce  
Joined: Dec 2001
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Joined: Dec 2001
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USA


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#10176 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:15 PM Re: Divorce [Re: J_Edwards]  

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The person that wrote the paper you posted has the problem of assumsion.
That is to say he assumes to much.
The argument that he is trying to make has already been disproven
in the 2 papers that I posted.

Look at the first part of his post. He tries to make his argument
that Jesus is allowing for divorce because of adultery as the famous “exception clause”
in Matthew 19:9. Jesus is not making that exception or it would
contradict other scripture. The person that wrote your paper needs to
read the entire context.

This is what I wrote in my paper:
MT 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Historically Moses had to be the Judge over the land long ago, “It was a dirty job sometimes, but someone had to do it”. Along with being the Judge came responsibility and questions of divorce from the people surrounding him. Jesus did not say whether Moses was right or wrong in making the divorce decree, Jesus merely stated the fact that Moses made the divorce decree allowable because the people’s hearts were hard. Jesus then expanded upon that and stated “But it was not this way from the beginning.” In other words, divorce is not in Gods original design for marriage. That reminds me of someone else’s heart who was hard… Exodus 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

MT 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Jesus is not agreeing with or allowing divorce in this statement, if fact if you were caught in adultery you didn’t divorce your wife… she would have been stoned by the hardhearted people. Jesus is once again stating a fact here that has historical value. A divorce certificate was not made to benefit the man from divorcing his wife, a divorce certificate was given to the wife to prove that she was not guilty of adultery. Once again, she would have been stoned for adultery, that was their way.
John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Sarcastically speaking to the pro-choice (pro-divorce) people, why divorce your wife, when you can just stone her, but be sure to harden your heart good and plenty first.


MT 19:10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." MT 19:11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.

Ah, so true, but the response of so many in the World today is: I can always remarry if this one doesn’t work out.

What would you do with this verse?
Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

#10177 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:22 PM Re: Divorce  
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MHeath Offline
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Michigan, USA
No, that is not what I meant. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As far as discussing it with you, I am also reluctant because you seem to have come here with some kind of agenda. No matter what anyone says to you, you will refute it anyway, so what's the point.

Michele

#10178 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:27 PM Re: Divorce  

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This book actually exposits the Word better than I do
and blows the "exception clause" theory out of the water.
And why? Because the Word of God in it entirety does not contradict itself, it is the Truth.

See also point 5.
5. People justify divorce today by misinterpreting the "exception clause."
Matthew 19:9
http://www.anabaptists.org/books/mdr/justify.html

Last edited by madmax; Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:30 PM.
#10179 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:29 PM Re: Divorce  

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Agenda? Yes, our job as Christians is to make disciples.
Iron sharpens Iron.

#10180 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:33 PM Re: Divorce  
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MHeath Offline
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so then are you a Calvinist? You believe in the perseverance of the saints? Or are you all trying to say that one that is in what you call an adulterous marriage is bound for hell?

#10181 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:37 PM Re: Divorce  

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With divorce striking our church, it has escalated to
epidemic proportions. Our fellow church members
have forgotten the foundation for marriage and
covenants made with God concerning this matter.

Even many of our Pastors, Leader, and Elders have lost
site of the foundation for marriage. From one side of
their mouth they whisper “don’t divorce” and when asked
why or what is your foundation, they either have no rock
solid reply or are to afraid to answer for fear of how
it will shake the church foundation and older members.

#10182 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:39 PM Re: Divorce  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
MHeath Offline
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That does not EVEN RESEMBLE what I asked you. (Please forgive the caps.. I am not yelling.. I just don't know how to make italics.)

#10183 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:40 PM Re: Divorce  

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Because I believe in Calvinism does not mean I should be complacent.
God still calls for repentance from us daily.
I am in a constant state of repentance (turning from sin) and (being sanctified) daily
until I am Glorified (in heaven).

#10184 - Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:41 PM Re: Divorce  

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I was typing before you posted, so our posts crossed each other.

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