Donations for the month of October


We have received a total of $20 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
Pilgrim
Pilgrim
NH, USA
Posts: 13,526
Joined: April 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,694
Posts51,472
Members930
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,526
Tom 3,545
chestnutmare 2,920
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,771
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 23
Pilgrim 16
Susan 4
John_C 3
Johan 2
grit 1
Recent Posts
Agree or Disagree and Why?
by Tom. Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:09 PM
Ever heard of Michael Heiser
by Tom. Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:02 PM
ADHD
by Tom. Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:47 AM
Quoting Scripture a Comfort?
by Tom. Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:53 PM
Looking for information
by Tom. Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:51 AM
"ites"
by Johan. Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:50 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
The Covenant of Works #10245
Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:26 AM
Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:26 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


WCF chap XIX : 1 says: God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works........

Genesis chap 2:16 says :And the Lord God commanded the man, saying........though shalt not eat of it.

How is this "command" a "covenant" ?

If it is a covenant,how is it a covenant of works ?

WCF XIX:2 says : This law....was delivered by God upon Mt Sinai.

Deuteronomy 5:2 says : The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us,even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Does the "us" include Adam ?

Re: The Covenant of Works #10246
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:08 AM
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Canyon Country, CA
fredman Offline
Addict
fredman  Offline
Addict
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Canyon Country, CA
Wooooo Mark,
You are treading on dispensational grounds with these questions! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Its like getting a stick and poking at a wasp nest.

Fred

Last edited by fredman; Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:09 AM.

"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: fredman] #10247
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:26 AM
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
Chicagoland
gotribe Offline

Old Hand
gotribe  Offline

Old Hand
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
Chicagoland
I'm probably showing my ignorance here, but I always thought the Covenant of Works was based on this passage in Genesis 1:

[quote]Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: The Covenant of Works #10248
Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:09 PM
Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 71
south fla.
Stucco Offline
Journeyman
Stucco  Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 71
south fla.
Mark,

It is a covenant because of the life and death conditions attached by God. It is a covenant of works because it entails a testing of Adam. If Adam carried out his end of the test (his work) he would then receive the blessings promised by God. If not, then death.

A good book on the subject of covenants is, The Christ Of The Covenants by O. Palmer Robertson.

Stucco

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: gotribe] #10249
Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:14 PM
Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 71
south fla.
Stucco Offline
Journeyman
Stucco  Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 71
south fla.
Gotribe,

I believe the passage you are quoting (Gen. 1:26-28) is what most would refer to as "The Cultural Mandate"

Stucco

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: Stucco] #10250
Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:09 PM
Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
Chicagoland
gotribe Offline

Old Hand
gotribe  Offline

Old Hand
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
Chicagoland
Thanks. I'll do a search on cultural mandate to learn more.


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: fredman] #10251
Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:19 AM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:19 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Quote
fredman said:
Wooooo Mark,
You are treading on dispensational grounds with these questions! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Its like getting a stick and poking at a wasp nest.

Fred


You know Fred perhaps Mark is coming from a NCT viewpoint, after all they too insist that there is no "Covenant of Works"



<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

Re: The Covenant of Works #10252
Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:34 AM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Canyon Country, CA
fredman Offline
Addict
fredman  Offline
Addict
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Canyon Country, CA
Knowing what Mark has posted in the past under his name of Howard, I doubt very seriously if he is defending NCT. I would hold to NCT; that is why I thought it funny Mark raised these questions.

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: fredman] #10253
Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:40 AM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:40 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


What law were Adam and others under before The 10 commandments were given in light of Deuteronomy 5:2 ?

If the the 10 commandments are the so-called moral law, then that makes the ceremonial, dietry ,and all other law immoral-including the law God gave to Adam BEORE Mt.Sinai.

Who dare say that about The Law of God ?

I am having great difficulty with WCF XIX :1,2. -as many folk said I would when looking into it.

Re: The Covenant of Works #10254
Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:41 PM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Michigan, USA
MHeath Offline
Addict
MHeath  Offline
Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Michigan, USA
okay, what is "NCT?" and..

I am on another board where this discussion is sort of taking place. There is a messianic Jewish Rabbi, who says that we as gentiles must follow the "Noadic law," and that he as a Jew must follow the Jewish law.

That did not ring true to me, and I have been through the Hebrew Roots thing before. It seemed to me before, having felt that I must follow the law, that the more law you learn, and begin to follow, the more law there is to follow, and it just never stops! It was like I stepped on a moving treadmill, and all of a sudden, walls went up around it, and the tread mill started going faster, and there was no way off. I realized I could not keep the law! lol. But that is one of the points of the new testament.

They got angry over there at me, probably rightly so, because I posted every single new testament passage concerning the law, and only afterward did I realize that the post was so long lol. Oh well.. anyway, they won't discuss it anymore anyway, but it is still on my mind.

I am not necessarily wondering WHICH laws we should follow, but how it is that we should follow the ten commandments, when it seemed that so much of the "law" described HOW to follow them. Like for instance explaining what sexual sin is etc. "Do not uncover the nakedness of".. whoever whoever etc.

A light just went off in my head when I read Pilgrims post that said that the ten commandments are summarized in the two law that Jesus gave. To love God,and love your neighbor. I can't believe that I never put them together. That the ten commandments are split in two parts, I knew that, and that there were two "new commandments, which are not new" given by Jesus. But then, how does a gay person say that he loves God? Or that he loves his neighbor? We know it's wrong, but I have a gay friend who insists that he is not living the wrong way, and that he does love God. How do I tell him he's wrong, if I don't give old testament examples? Or are there new testament examples too?

I hope I made sense.... I have to get off here now, and I have been quite distracted with my children while writing this post! LOL.. speaking of that.. Sanctus Stultus.. my children want to know your name, and Kim.. they love your dog, and Pilgrim.. they laugh every time they see the pipe smoking old man! LOL

Michele

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: MHeath] #10255
Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:48 PM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
New Covenant Theology is an attempt to carve out a middle way between traditional Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Its focus is mainly on ethics. NCT clearly characterizes itself as superior to the old. It rejects the Ten Commandments in favor of the law of Christ. Bad mumbo-jumbo. Some who post here entertain and hold to its tenets.

"Covenant Theology" declares that the Old Covenant and New Covenant are particular aspects of a single covenant relationship and that there is an ongoing continuity between them.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: MHeath] #10256
Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:50 PM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Quote
I am not necessarily wondering WHICH laws we should follow, but how it is that we should follow the ten commandments, when it seemed that so much of the "law" described HOW to follow them. Like for instance explaining what sexual sin is etc. "Do not uncover the nakedness of".. whoever whoever etc.

Michele,

You are referring to Lev. 20:7-19, no? That section deals with cohabiting with one's relatives outside of marriage, which too was prohibited (marriage and/or having sex with "near relatives". And to uncover one's nakedness is an English euphemism for sexual intercourse. These sins, being moral are simply applications of the Seventh Commandment, prohibiting adultery and implied in other passages in the New Testament, particularly in the writings of Paul, e.g., 1Cor 6:9, 10, 13; Gal 5:19-21; Col 3:5, where lasciviousness and fornication are mentioned. The judicial aspect of the O.T. laws, e.g., the stoning to death of adulterers is no longer applicable since they were confined strictly to the nation of Israel. But the moral aspects are perpetual and binding.

Quote
But then, how does a gay person say that he loves God? Or that he loves his neighbor? We know it's wrong, but I have a gay friend who insists that he is not living the wrong way, and that he does love God. How do I tell him he's wrong, if I don't give old testament examples? Or are there new testament examples too?

Again, the O.T. examples of God's prohibition against homosexuality and judgment upon those who practiced such sins are relevant to those living in the N.T., for they are MORAL; i.e., they reflect the holiness of God, which is eternal and immutable. There are myriad passages which speak against the sins of homosexuality in the N.T., e.g., Rom 1:26ff; 1Cor 9:6; Eph 4:19; 5:12; 1Tim 1:10; 2Pet 2:6; Jude 1:7, 10.

In His Grace; and the "pipe-smoking old man",

[Linked Image]

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: Pilgrim] #10257
Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:07 PM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Michigan, USA
MHeath Offline
Addict
MHeath  Offline
Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Michigan, USA
Okay, it looks like I may have stuck my nose into a conversation that is way over my head LOL. I have heard of dispensationalism, and I think that is what I have always believed. Or rather, been taught. Does dispensationalism have more to do with eschatology than anything else? I do not discuss that.. because so much of what I believed before turned out to be a lie, and I really think God has shaken much of that doctrine that I learned, and started building again with the right stuff. It has taken a very long time though, as I am extremely cautious about what I read/take in. As a matter of fact, it has taken me about a year to get a handle on predestination, and believe that it is true!

So, my point I guess is.. where would I find something to read on dispensationalism and NCT, what it is exactly, and why one would think it's wrong?

I think this has a huge importance on how we live out our Christian faith, and I think it is probably vital to know this, and why it is either right or wrong. I mean the difference between keeping the whole law, or just some of it, or what ever and why and how.

I wonder if I should start another thread on the Hebrew Roots movement. Because so many messianic jews say that we are to follow the law. Of course, I have to say here, that I love the jews, am fascinated with things Jewish, so I am not trying to be or sound anti semetic at all. But I think Jews are saved in exactly the same way as any gentile. And I don't think that because we don't follow either any, or portions of the law, or because we don't write G-D, or because we don't say "shalom" that we are not holy.

Maybe I am not completely understanding the meaning of this thread.. I hope I didn't hijack it! But maybe it would be better to read up a bit on NCT and dispensationalism.

Okay.. that's it! Thanks so much!

Michele

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: MHeath] #10258
Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:16 PM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Michele,

There are quite a number of "flavors" of Dispensationalism today, so I can't make a definitive statement in regard to your question as to whether it effects only or mainly "eschatology". However, on the other hand I can say that Dispensationalism in ALL its various varieties effects more than simply eschatology. Further, "eschatology" deals far more than simply the "Second Coming", as even salvation is "eschatological". When you understand that eschatology is the doctrine of study that deals with the "last things"... with a heavy emphasis upon "things", you will realize that everything has a "telos", or end, purpose which God has ordained, even our salvation. So, the ramifications are complex and encompass a myriad subjects. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As to where to start reading? I would point you here:

1) The Christian and the Law: PRAXIS: The Doctrine of the Christian Life.

2) Dispensationalism, etc.,: ESCHATOLOGY: The Doctrine of Last Things.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: fredman] #10259
Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:02 PM
Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:02 PM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Quote
fredman said:
Knowing what Mark has posted in the past under his name of Howard, I doubt very seriously if he is defending NCT. I would hold to NCT; that is why I thought it funny Mark raised these questions.

Fred


Really Fred I thought you more a lite dispensationalist rather than a someone who holds to NCT. Learn something new tonight I guess.



<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 30 guests, and 111 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SnydersSoapbox, Susan, reformedbygrace, ReformedDisciple, Micki Bowman
930 Registered Users
Shout Box
October
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
825,719 Gospel truth
Page Time: 0.081s Queries: 16 (0.011s) Memory: 2.9851 MB (Peak: 3.3003 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-10-18 07:58:46 UTC