George wrote: if Calvin's prayers were open to public knowledge, this only indicates he didn't follow Scripture.
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Let me give just one more published prayer. It may have special significance to you. It does for me.
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Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. Paul, II Cor 7,8
Dave
George, George, George you state one thing and then you take it back when confronted with the truth.
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1saved retorted: As to Paul's prayer being in Scripture, what's your point, so is the Lord's prayer. This is no argument against what I said. I know Jesus prayed, but He did so privately.
Where in Scripture did Jesus or any of His followers lead a multitude in prayer or even hold a prayer meeting? Is it wrong to pray? Of course not! Just don't try to convince anyone you're holy by some superficial jesture. You won't fool a true believer.
Seriously George by your words you have already proven that you need to repent and come to the truth. Please George quit living this lie that says you've come to a saving knowledge of Christ it is obvious that isn't true. Listen to the truth repent of your sins trust in Christ alone.
I waded through about a third of the post, found something germane to the issue and posted it as a service to others.
The only writers outside Scripture I've recommended to this website are Dr. MacArthur, Dr. Horton, Dr. Boice, Dr. Feinberg, John Bunyan and the book 'Inerrancy' edited by Norman Geisler.
In the future, I may choose to use another author than one of the above. For examples, I have books written by popular writers trying to understand and explain eschatology, i.e. Dr. John Walvoord and Tim Lahaye. I have a book by Rev. Billy Graham.
Should I check with you first? Is there some approved author list published on this website, so I would know who you will accept and who you won't accept as being notable or trustworthy?
By posting it, I did not recommend it, or its author, as having any credibility. In my response concerning Dave Hunt, I admitted to only reading one of his books called 'The Woman Rides The Beast', but since it involves eschatology, it was therefore not germane to the discussion. I deliberately didn't give any opinion on it, to show no bias!
I am certainly aware everyone is scrutinizing everything I've said, looking for someway to attack my logic and question my truthfulness. For example, Pilgrim thinks the dictionary I used (Funk & Wagnalls) is showing bias to define the words 'fruit' and 'tree' or 'sanction'. I offered to use the 'American Heritage Dictionary' instead, if he prefers, but he didn't answer.
I welcome honest concerns. You need to know whether someone is truthful and logical. But in doing so, be careful, for you are criticizing your brother. Jesus teaches us to remove the log from our own eye, before we look for the speck that's in our brother's eye.
I waded through about a third of the post, found something germane to the issue and posted it as a service to others.
The only writers outside Scripture I've recommended to this website are Dr. MacArthur, Dr. Horton, Dr. Boice, Dr. Feinberg, John Bunyan and the book 'Inerrancy' edited by Norman Geisler.
In the future, I may choose to use another author than one of the above. For examples, I have books written by popular writers trying to understand and explain eschatology, i.e. Dr. John Walvoord and Tim Lahaye. I have a book by Rev. Billy Graham.
Should I check with you first? Is there some approved author list published on this website, so I would know who you will accept and who you won't accept as being notable or trustworthy?
By posting it, I did not recommend it, or its author, as having any credibility. In my response concerning Dave Hunt, I admitted to only reading one of his books called 'The Woman Rides The Beast', but since it involves eschatology, it was therefore not germane to the discussion. I deliberately didn't give any opinion on it, to show no bias!
I am certainly aware everyone is scrutinizing everything I've said, looking for someway to attack my logic and question my truthfulness. For example, Pilgrim thinks the dictionary I used (Funk & Wagnalls) is showing bias to define the words 'fruit' and 'tree' or 'sanction'. I offered to use the 'American Heritage Dictionary' instead, if he prefers, but he didn't answer.
I welcome honest concerns. You need to know whether someone is truthful and logical. But in doing so, be careful, for you are criticizing your brother. Jesus teaches us to remove the log from our own eye, before we look for the speck that's in our brother's eye.
Okay lets do this by the numbers:
1.) You quoted this:
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I found this, however: The way from Vienne or Toulouse, where he may have gone first, leads through Grenoble, Modane, and Turin. Why then such a wearisome detour? Moreover he had every reason to avoid Geneva because Calvin had warned him for many years. As early as 1546, he wrote to Farel that should Servetus come to Geneva he would not leave alive, provided his authority was still respected. From the connection of the letter, I conclude he must have written to Servetus in like manner. According to the documents of the trial, Servetus. seemed to be of the opinion that Calvin himself served notice on him in Vienne.
The testimony above says the official documents of the trial of Servetus may imply something different than what Dr. Horton wrote, i.e. there is no official trial record of malice toward Servetus by Calvin. I'm hoping Dr. Horton or a representative of his will clarify this apparent conflicting testimony between Hunt and Dr. Horton.
I pointed out that Hunt's scholarship is in question something attested to by many people. You don't see this with regard to Dr. Michael Horton's scholarship. Is it possible for you to understand this? Did I use too many syllables if so I'll try to keep it down to words consisting of two or less.
2.) I find it incredulous that you who stated:
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Saying something doesn't make it true. Quoting Calvin's doctrine doesn't make it true either. I will only accept the inspired Word of God as having any authority in doctrine.
and
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What I have learned in Ephesians 1 was not received from any man, but came by the teaching of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.
Now you go on to quote many different authors lending them credence and then get defensive when you are called on the carpet for it! Figure it out George are you a man who "only accepts the inspired Word of God" and "teaching of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit" or do you accept outside sources also? You accuse us of being unscriptural when we quote things like the Westminster Confession or the Institutes of Calvin. But are quick to use your articles and books for your own defense so who is being the hypocrite here?
3.) Finally let me say once again George you need to repent. Whatever your assuming to be the basis of your salvation is being made evident here to be deficient by your words and by your attitude which speak volumes to your actual condition. Repent George come to Christ trust on him alone.
Pete
Last edited by Sanctus_Stultus; Sat Jan 31, 20043:03 PM.
Perhaps you are not aware that Pilgrim and I agree that both Dr. MacArthur and Dr. Horton were 'notable Calvinists.'
If you look up the word 'notable' in your dictionary you will see why Dr. Norton's credibility was not in question. His credibility was established for the purpose of this discussion. Therefore I wrote what I wrote.
When I use the word 'authority' it is with a specific purpose in mind. Look this word up in your dictionary as well. If we can't agree to the meaning of words or how to determine their meaning, we might as well stop communicating with each other.
I'd provide the definitions of words for you, but what dictionary do you agree everyone should use, so I can extract them for you? Beyond that, which of the many choices for each word? Should we say that only the Oxford English Dictionary and the first definition of each word is acceptable?
How would you like to begin discussing which translation of Scripture everyone should agree to use. Do I have to use the same one John Calvin used, which was in Latin? Should I use the Tyndale, or the KJV only because that was what was probably used at the Westminster Confession of Faith?
Should we all insist on using only an antique dictionary from the 16th or 17th century? Maybe we should insist that everyone write in a olde English manner, so we have uniformity there as well?
I thought we were seeking the truth, not trying to coverup the truth. Coverups never succeed anyway. Wasn't this the lesson of Watergate and the Bill Clinton affair?
If you insist on claiming John Calvin did not "agree to the death of Servetus", then re-open the case. The legal system has provisions for an appeal in cases of a mistrial and I have no problem going over all the testimony again, if you think there is any value to do so.
You can contest the testimony of all the witnesses if you like and you can place any new evidence on the board. If you want to throw out the testimony of Dave Hunt, feel free.
The "guilty as charged" verdict wasn't based upon a decision by a judge or jury. The verdict was determined by the admission of guilt by Calvin's defense attorney, Pilgrim.
Therefore, there was no longer any reason to continue bringing any more evidence to the forum. If you want to defend Calvin against the charge made by Dr. John MacArthur as quoted in his book, you will have to challenge Dr. MacArthur's reputation as a credible witness. Are you prepared to do that?
The only writers outside Scripture I've recommended to this website are Dr. MacArthur, Dr. Horton, Dr. Boice, Dr. Feinberg, John Bunyan and the book 'Inerrancy' edited by Norman Geisler.
Mostly doctors, implying formal education . . . oh dear me. What is this? Can formal education be used to enlighten the Christian on right doctrine? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/flee.gif" alt="" />
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Completely worthless. You've pulled it out of context so I have no means of knowing where it's from unless I go and look through the entire site once more!
Perhaps if you had read through the entire site, you would see that your persistence in this issue is in the wrong.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
To answer your rebuttal to me, I can definitely say that the evidence of praying doesn't mean anything. There any many Roman Catholic monasteries and convents where prayer is done continually.
As a matter of fact, prayer should be done privately, in secret. Matthew 6:6 So, if Calvin's prayers were open to public knowledge, this only indicates he didn't follow Scripture.
Are you insane? Is Christ guilty of sin for having made public knowledge the Lord's Prayer?
We are to pray in private RATHER THAN to seek accolades for false righteousness by praying aloud on the street corner. We are not commanded that we should never pray aloud or in public!
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
I think you are claiming, by implication, that what I've done is evil. But by seeking the truth and finding the truth, I have done what is good.
You sought truth and adopted a lie---a lie which has been shown false innumerable times. And yet you continue to insist upon this lie: that the death of Servetus proves that Calvin was reprobate.
Your charge is libelous and you ought to repent.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
I'm not talking about followers, I'm talking about leaders. Dr. MacArthur exhibits good fruit, but he is a Calvinist. The leader of the Calvinist doctrine was John Calvin and it's his fruit we should examine to see if there was even one example of bad fruit.
And one example automatically proves them to be foreign to the Kingdom of God?
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Let's make every effort to not disparage the reputation of our brothers, as we try to determine the truth as to whether or not "Calvin sanctioned the burning of Servetus."
Hypocrite.
You've already judged Calvin a "bearer of bad fruit" and hence one not indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
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Have you ever considered Who is really in control? Have you trusted Him in faith? Scripture says, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For by what measure you judge, you will be judged, and the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."
Indeed, you are blinded by the plank in your own eye!
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
"Servetus lately wrote to me,and coupled with his letter a long volume of his delirious fancies, with the Thrasonic boast,that I should see something astonishing and unheard of. He takes it upon himself to come hither,if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety,for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive,provided my authority be of any avail. "
Ok, Ok, Ok, John Calvin is burning in a devil's hell, George. Everything he taught was a lie. Now, can we get back to what God says, through the apostle Paul, about the nature of His saving Grace as taught in Ephesians 1?
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Dear 1Saved, Thank you for the clarifications. I appreciate your mentioning which dictionary you got these out of and where the word "sanction" came from. I apologize if my post came off as being offensive. I admit, my knowledge of the life of John Calvin is not nearly what I'm sure it could be, not on par with the rest of this board, but there were a few questions I was left wandering after reading your first post on this thread and I was trying to point them out with my original response. I also thank you for pointing out who this Dr. Horton is, as I said, I've never heard of him. I will take your and Pilgrim's word's on this matter.
ALSO, I must admit that I fail to see how I "disparage the reputation of our brothers," and especially after I understand you to have questioned my salvation (with your last paragraph), which would seem to indicate that you don't believe me to be your brother in Christ?
In all actuality, I'm afraid to report that it doesn't keep me up at night worrying whether Calvin allowed someone to kill a heretic or if he allowed poker night every week or something like that. If we judge a system of belief on the sole basis that the actions of an individual or a group of individual's then we're not judging a belief but it's adherents which doesn't really prove much at all. The pagans judge like that. So, I don't really give a great deal of care and there's not much I can do about it if I did. And if I don't care then I most certainly don't sanction or oppose it. My post was strictly about your post. Also, couldn't we just dumb this argument down to a matter of do you support the authority "established of God" and do you support the death penalty? Basically the only difference between those two questions and this one is that your argument is based on an incident mentioned in a book which happens to mention a famous theologian being invovled.
Oh, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, I appreciate it when people say I'm odd, and getting compared to a Jack Nichelson character is definatly a new one for me, I laughed quite hardily after reading that one. It might help my understanding though if I had watched "A Few Good Men" but I've been too busy doing work and fellowshipping with church people to sit down and watch a hollywood production.
Finally, Yes, I know Jesus, I know that He is in control, it's as simple as our PreSchoolers put it, "God is in Control" I hope that you do as well, as I hope that all the members and readers of this board do. Ultimately though, my salvation is up to the Lord and I must work it out with fear and trembling. I cannot trust Him except He calls me with Irresistable Grace.
And by the way, my dad (an arminian) tries to use that verse from Matthew whenever I say anything questioning somebody, and if you actually read the chapter and in context and think about it, especially in the Greek, I think you'll come to discover that it's speaking about slandering people, otherwise it would negate your case since you're judgeing the fruit of John Calvin.
-Brother Luke
P.S. Now I might be wrong, but there are several points I don't believe you've addressed yet from my first post, but that's your business. "Have a nice day!"
Last edited by BrimstonePreacha; Mon Feb 02, 20049:49 AM.
Dear Pilgrim, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bingo.gif" alt="" /> I greatly appreciate your patience with my ignorance, but I did in fact already know what information was supplied in short in this post. I appreciate your inclusion of these two links which I fully intent to examine. It is clear though that the 5 points themselves are not known as "The Five Points of Calvinism" before Calvin existed though, but I understand and agree that this doctrinal system is evident throughout the Bible, especially in the writing's of Paul. And from what I've read of Augustine, it's most certain that he clung to these doctrines with all his might and loved them dearly. I would however caution (certain other persons) as I have been cautioned that the usage of the 5 points cannot be done at the expense of other biblical doctrines, we must let the Bible define our theology. That was the point I was trying to get across.
The "as I recall" that I used in my original post was more of a sarcastic or automatic wording, when I post all I'm doing is typing what I would say if this person were in front of me. I apologize if my way of speaking is confusing.
Speaking of all this history though, I still want to know how Oliver Cromwell got into all this? I don't really feel like going back to rediscover who mentioned him, but someone in this thread mentioned him and I'm just thinking, what in the world does Cromwell have to do with anything?
Anyway, that's enough showing my ignorance for one day.
Thank you very much, Your Brother in Christ, -Luke <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bravo.gif" alt="" />
