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A Refutation of The Other Side of Calvinism -LONG #106
Wed Dec 26, 2001 7:02 PM
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J_Edwards Offline OP
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I am attending seminary once agin to obtain another Doctorates and my thesis this time is a refutation of The Other Side of Calvinism, by Laurence Vance (his work 788 pages). You may see his Preface at:

http://vancepublications.com/webdoc22.htm

and another one of his pages at:

http://vancepublications.com/webdoc20.htm

These are the only links I know of to any of his material on the internet (if you know of other please share them).<br><br>I have began my Preface and would like your comments. Please be kind, gentle, helpful, and constructive. I'm concerned I may be too hard on the man and not on his material. I desire to be true to scripture.

Please let me know how it reads to you. Many thanks.

My Preface<br><br>The one sole sentence in Laurence M. Vance’s book, The Other Side of Calvinism, I find completely true and meaningful for this refutation of his work is, “The first and only resource, as well as the final authority for everything said herein, is of course the Holy Bible.” Yes, there are some other parts of his book that are entertaining. But he alone departs from the Scriptures and fails to use it first and only as his authority. His attempt to discredit the truth stands not in Sola Scriptura, that is the Scriptures Alone, but Scriptura Sola Vance-ology, or the Scripture, plus Vance-ology Alone. His book would better be named A Dance with Vance, because and he side-steps and spins his reader into waltzes and jigs (confusion, 1 Tim 1:3-4) instead of being transformed and renewed by the truth (Rom 12:2). He asks the reader to consider incomplete histories, his present-day interpretations of words written thousands of years ago, and his dogma of theories and philosophies that support Arminianism and other works of heresy (i.e. Semi-Pelagianism).<br><br>What I will ask the reader to do in this book is to consider the Biblical interpretations of the Scripture as interpreted in and of itself (2 Tim 3:16-17). For this we will need to explore some of the original languages, because biblical words have defined meanings as meant by their usage, history, and context. For instance the KJV of Paul’s letter to the Corinthians states:<br><br>1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. <br><br>Some well meaning soles have preached that it is important and necessary to marry another or else they would burn in Hell. One may immediately ask, what then would be the case for Christ, since He did not marry another? Is He in Hell? God Forbid the thought! No! A hundred times, no!. Positively Not, another would say! What then is our answer? A simple exploration into the Greek meaning for the word burn here will suffice. The Greek word for burn is ‘puroo’ (purovw). ‘Puroo’ means, to burn with fire, to set on fire, kindle, to be on fire, to burn, to be incensed, indignant and is used ‘fugitively,’ meaning it is better to marry than to burn with passion. John McArthur states it this way:<br><br>The term means “to be inflamed,” and is best understood as referring to strong passion (cf. Rom. 1:27). A person cannot live a happy life, much less serve the Lord, if he is continually burning with sexual desire—even if the desire never results in actual immorality. And in a society such as Corinth’s, or ours, in which immorality is so prevalent and accepted, it is especially difficult not to succumb to temptation. <br><br>As John Calvin states, “And to retain Paul’s metaphor, it is one thing to burn and another to feel heat. Hence what Paul here calls burning, is not a mere slight feeling, but a boiling with lust, so that you cannot resist.” As one can see the meaning of the terms, the way they are meant in context and usage, are quite different than what some have interpreted the verse to actually mean (to burn in Hell vs. to burn with passion). Thus, our study shall allow the Scripture to teach us. At times we will need assistance as in the verse above. But always, our meanings will be established by the Bible’s usage of terms and not man’s inclinations of what he may think they mean.<br><br>In Vance’s preface of The Other Side of Calvinism he suggests there is a shortage of works against Calvinism. While I would state that I do not agree with all forms of Calvinism, and to those I write against also, true Calvinism need not have one word written against it, because it is the Bible. I do not agree with everything John Calvin, Martin Luther, and others have written about the faith once delivered to the saints. But I do agree with the synopsis of the five points of Calvinism, commonly called TULIP, against the five points of Arminianism. Vance defends the heresy of Arminianism. I will defend the truth of Calvinism. I will defend the Bible. I must be for Christ (Mat 12:30). I must be for His Word (John 1:1).<br><br>Where, Dr. Laurence Vance criticizes certain saints and finds their shortcomings, I will contend for their forgiveness and understanding (1 John 8-10). Where, Vance admits not writing his work from a neutral perspective (Preface), I will contend for the truth, whether for or against the Calvinist viewpoint. It is only the truth of Christ that will set us free (John 8:36). Where Vance stretches for labeling everyone associated with Calvinism, I will call doctrines, theories, and philosophies not consistent with the Scripture what Paul called them in Galatians, “another gospel,” (Gal 1:6). Where Vance says Calvinism is a weak doctrine, I say I have two weapons. One, the errors of those that think they are strong (Gal 6:3). Two, and more important, the truth of that which is strong, the Word of God (Heb 4:12). Lastly, where Vance states and fantasizes that his work is balanced (Preface), I will show the real weight of it as a doctrine that is so heavy with untruth that it is accursed of God Himself (Gal 1:9). The issues at hand are that important! As Jude writes;<br><br>Jude 3-4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.<br><br>Some may say that I am too hard on Laurence Vance. I will state now for the record that I am not against Dr. Vance, but I am against what he contends is truth. I pray for Dr. Vance that his eyes may be opened unto the truth of the Holy Writ (Eph 1:15-22). While I have reason to believe Dr. Vance to be a sincere Christian, by some of what he has written, I do believe in the same voice that he is also sincerely wrong in his theological approach and interpretation of the Holy Scripture. Whether he is or is not a Christian though is not for me to judge (John 7:24). I ask Dr. Vance to judge his own work (1 Cor 11:31). I do believe though, and thus I pray for Dr. Vance, if one denies the Holy Scripture, if he contends for another gospel, if he spreads untruth, he denies Christ (John 1:1), and he is accursed (Gal 1:9). The Scripture expressly tells us:<br><br>Matthew 7:15-21 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. <br><br>I ask the reader to judge the fruit of Vance’s work not as compared to how he has/is living his life, or even I in my life. That is far too low of a standard. I ask that you raise the standard to the highest level. Compare it with Scripture (Prov 3:5-6; Mat 11:28-30). <br><br>God, I pray for Thy wisdom and direction that this work may glorify Thee in the fulness of Thy glory (Eph 1; 3:14-21). I pray that this work will heal the brokenhearted, deliver the captives, give sight to the blind, and set at liberty them that are bruised, that it be acceptable to you Oh, Lord (Luke 4:18-19). May you open thus my eyes that I may speak and be understood and put aside all foolishness (1 Cor 1:17-21). I pray that I may have the same Spirit Paul had when he wrote:<br><br>Acts 20:26-30 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. <br><br>Nevertheless, Thy will be done Oh, Lord (Luke 11:2).<br><br><br>

Re: A Refutation of The Other Side of Calvinism -LONG [Re: J_Edwards] #107
Wed Dec 26, 2001 10:57 PM
Wed Dec 26, 2001 10:57 PM
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Hey Joe! [Linked Image]

That wasn't so "long"... [Linked Image]

Now, here's my opinion in answer to your question whether you are too hard on Mr. Vance personally. When I look at how John Calvin refuted the semi-Pelagian views of Albertus Pighius in his magnificent work, [i]The Eternal Predestination of God[/i], your introductory remarks read like a "love letter"! [Linked Image]

It is certainly true that Calvin and many who wrote in like style were too "harsh" in the eyes of many moderns today. Yet perhaps their negative assessment is more the result of a lack of a commitment to biblical "true truth" and/or a rejection of "absolutes" concerning the person and nature of the Triune God and the salvation of sinners. But whatever the reason, "schmoozing" and a "laissez faire" attitude [Linked Image] concerning biblical/theological matters is the rigor of the day.

While contemporaries counsel, "You can't love others until you love yourself!", the Word of God in contradistinction declares, "You cannot love others unless you love God first and foremost!" (Matt 22:38). Neither the Lord Christ nor the Apostles made it a habit of "mincing words" when it came to defending the truth of God or the Gospel of grace. At the risk of sounding like the proverbial "broken record", the late Dr. John H. Gerstner was a man who exemplified this truth in that loved God and his neighbor so much that he refused to compromise the truth! (see the attached article).

Let me end my approval of what you have written thus far by quoting Martin Luther, who I think sums it up nicely:
"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order.... when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction -- to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon." - Martin Luther
May God guide you, grant you wisdom and perseverance in this endeavor. But more so, may He fill your heart with more love for Him and His immutable truth so that your light may shine bright as the noon day sun.


One Puritan said "Showing mercy to the wolf is showing cruelty to the sheep."


In His Grace,

Attached Files-Click on Image to view full size.

[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Thanks Pilgrim [Re: Pilgrim] #108
Thu Dec 27, 2001 5:31 AM
Thu Dec 27, 2001 5:31 AM
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J_Edwards Offline OP
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Many Thanks.<br><br>I knew I would get an article to read from you... [Linked Image] and I have not read this one, so I have an opportunity to learn more. Thanks. I like the two quotes you had in your post also and may decide to use those. [Linked Image] Again, Thanks.<br><br>My chief concern is having someone read the Preface of the book and instead of getting into the meat of the work, they just put it down, thinking it too tough and not properly marinated (they deisre milk not meat, sour milk at that). I guess you may say I'm fearful of them not picking up the silverware to eat the meal before them. With the prevelience of 'what' and 'how' many things are taught in our day and time I thought it best to reserved somewhat........thus I needed some good advise from the board here.<br><br>I pray for the love of God and His patience to get through this work and I ask others to pray also. When I read some of what Vance wrote, it does make me angry, as I believe it would many many here...I just do not wish to sin in the process, but rather reveal the truth in love.........but not to the point of condoning heresy to ANY extent (actually parts of his book will make you weep in agony as he attempts to destroy truth...how can one have such a distorted view of Christ, God, and the Bible....Oh, yes, Total Depravity...). Actually, in some respects I may being to kind as you infer from the other writers you quote. I need to give this more prayer.<br><br>Thanks Again, Pilgrim!


Reformed and Always Reforming,
I had an E-mail [Re: J_Edwards] #109
Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:44 AM
Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:44 AM
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I had an E-Mail asking me why another doctorates...aren't the ones you have enough? (paraphrased). I am sure if one wrote an e-mail many others may have a similar question. Thus,....<br><br>My answer, "For me , No." A doctorate itself is just a piece of paper. It is simply man's way of evaluating another and that not to well at times (my first college was Arminian...before I even heard of Calvin or the like...the name of it is not important. You still learn 'some' good things, you just have to learn to reapply them correctly....). What is important to me is learning........ and how I learn may be a bit unusual, so let me explain.<br><br>I was raised in a military family with a father that is Catholic (pray for him he is lost and dying of lung cancer) and went to a military school. I became an officer in the Army who of course continued to send me to more and more schools. When I left the military (went into the Reserves--out now) I went into law enforcement where I endured yet more and more schooling to perform my job according to certain rules (I was a homicide Detective and a Division Commander of Internal Affairs.....I was saved by the grace of God while in Law Enforcement). This was all a long ago, but it did indoctrinate me into 'going to school to learn and then applying what I have learned.' It established a pattern in my life in submitting myself to others to learn, in many ways the same as one should submit himself to his/her pastor that they may continue to grow in grace and truth.<br><br>Thus, for me going back to school is just another challenge to learn more, to be able to apply and live my life to the fullest before Christ. It is a place I can submit myself and continue the learnng habits that have and are being established in my life. It is a place of time constraints that force me to apply, read, understand, and attain to a certain level in a specific time. Thus, I can grow in grace and truth. Paul went away for three years and then began his ministry...it will take me a little longer [Linked Image]<br><br>Lastly, I consider myself inadequate. Inadequate in my understanding of the Word of God. Inadequate in my application of the Word. Inadequate in the Defense of the truth and sharing the Gospel with others. I lean to studying to showing myslef approved unto God...and no-one else, and not to be as many who are ever learning and not able to come to the truth. I'm hungry continually. No amount of paper hung on a wall means you understand it all and I know no amount of education will give it all. Some of the most gifted men I know have never attended college...Spurgeon comes to mind and some others I know personally now. There is no church in my area that teaches the Doctrines of Grace--we will be prayfully opening one his coming year. Unless I travel there is no fellowship with like-minded indivduals (I'm thankful though for this site and others like it which I monitor continually...keep posting). Additionally I'm praying about teaching at a Seminary one day and desire to be adequately prepared for souls, called students, that will count on my preparation, but more importantlyt God's grace to understand Divine Truths. Thus, I turn once again to education to submit myself under those that are wiser and better read than I, so I may continue to explore, grow, be changed and live my life to Chrst's fullest that He maybe glorified.<br>


Reformed and Always Reforming,
No church? [Re: J_Edwards] #110
Sun Dec 30, 2001 12:48 PM
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Dear Joe,<br><br>it was a privilege to read your bio. <br><br>You mention there is no Reformed church near you. Have you thought of submitting your location to the Church Locator board here?<br><br>In Christ,<br><br>James.

Re: A Refutation of The Other Side of Calvinism -LONG [Re: J_Edwards] #111
Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:07 PM
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Joe,

Have you finished your refutation yet?

Guess who I just called me today wanting me to look up something for him...Laurence Vance, all the way from Florida! He wanted me to find a quote by Cardinal Hosius, which I just found and will fax to him.

I thought the name sounded familiar, and he had told me our library probably had one of his books. He mentioned his book on Bible translations, but he didn't (on purpose?) mention the Other Side of Calvinism.

On the more recent thread on TOSOC, it was mentioned Mr. Vance spoke of the number 5 meaning death and the 5 points of TULIP. That really irks me. I'm glad I didn't realize it was his book until after I spoke with him. Hey...the title to his book has FIVE WORDS IN IT!!!!!...


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: A Refutation of The Other Side of Calvinism -LONG [Re: MarieP] #112
Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:03 PM
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Semper,

Have you had the pleasure of reading Pastor Mark Herzer's article we have here on The Highway, called: "Arminianism Exposed"? I think you would find this very informative as well. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: A Refutation of The Other Side of Calvinism -LONG [Re: MarieP] #113
Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:23 PM
Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:23 PM
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Quote
On the more recent thread on TOSOC, it was mentioned Mr. Vance spoke of the number 5 meaning death and the 5 points of TULIP. That really irks me. I'm glad I didn't realize it was his book until after I spoke with him. Hey...the title to his book has FIVE WORDS IN IT!!!!!...


(Fred) Who is able to stand against such withering logic?

Five = Death

TULIP has Five Letters,

therefore, Calvinism brings spiritual death.

Of course we could also see:

Five = Death

VANCE has five letters

therefore, Vance brings spiritual death

So much for anti-Calvinistic argumentation.

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Re: A Refutation of The Other Side of Calvinism -LONG [Re: fredman] #114
Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:43 PM
Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:43 PM

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Jesus = Death? Hardly. Good point Fredman. Some people will grasp at any straw. These type of people are actually the problem and not the answer.

Joe, I enjoyed reading it, and you made several good points already. Will you be posting further excerpts?


God bless,

william

Last edited by averagefellar; Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:49 PM.
Dance with Vance [Re: MarieP] #115
Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:33 PM
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I am still working on this (thought of dropping it actually....). Vance's book is extremely long--boring--and easily refuted. His arguments are (1) false (2) ill informed, etc. I have a special place in my Library for this book--where I keep all my joke books <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />.

I am surprised Vance called--uhmmm he must have an updated edition coming out. I'm afraid my refutation is a while off yet....but keep praying--I have allot of irons in the fire....still working on baptism, and another work that is taking some precedence over even these...

I would be interested though in you posting the quote he desired.....


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Dance with Vance [Re: J_Edwards] #116
Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:48 PM
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Quote
[As Cardinal Hosius wrote] "If the truth of religion were to be judged by the readiness and boldness of which a man of any sect shows in suffering, then the opinion and persuasion of no sect can be truer and surer than that of the Anabaptist since there have been none for these twelve hundred years past, that have been more generally punished or that have more cheerfully and steadfastly undergone, and even offered themselves to the most cruel sorts of punishment than these people."


Baptist Magazine CVIII, 278. June, 1826

Its context is a letter to the editor about the persecutions of the Dutch Baptists


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Dance with Vance [Re: MarieP] #117
Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:55 PM
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Well I guess Calvinists are fixing to be blamed for 1200 years of persecution if he holds true to form.

Thanks for posting that.... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bravo.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Dance with Vance [Re: J_Edwards] #118
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:40 PM
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I sure hope not...

But you just may be right! Vance called again after I posted the initial posting on here (because of some problem with the fax). He asked if we had any of his books, and I said I found several. He asked about several of them, and I said yes, plus "The Other Side of Calvinism." He said, "Oh, do you have both the hardback and paperback." I said yes, and that I had not read it but I had heard arguments against his book. He said that it was indeed a controversial book, but that some colleges used it as a textbook.

I about fell out of my chair on that one! [Linked Image]

I said that I doubted we used it for a textbook here, since so many of here are Calvinistic. He was silent for about a minute. I could have recommended James White or James Boice, but I refrained myself.

I believe I showed him good and friendly service, I mean, for one like me who subscribes to the doctrines of death. [Linked Image]


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Dance with Vance [Re: MarieP] #119
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:43 PM
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I could have recommended James White or James Boice, but I refrained myself.


He would not have taken your advice anyway. JAMES, WHITE and BOICE both have 5 letters in their name <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Dance with Vance [Re: J_Edwards] #120
Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:02 PM
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He knows my name TOO! MARIE! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/flee.gif" alt="" />

(Hey, how many letters does VANCE have?)

Last edited by SemperReformanda; Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:02 PM.

True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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