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Free Will of Christians/non Christians #12303
Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:03 PM
Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Michigan, USA
MHeath Offline OP
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MHeath  Offline OP
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Can we discuss free will? I have no trouble believing that there is nothing good in man that makes him "choose" God, or "choose" salvation in the Lord Jesus. But how far does that go?

A non believer can choose to do something good, and a Christian can choose to disobey God right? Does the free will question only pertain to salvation?

Michele

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: MHeath] #12304
Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:29 PM
Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:29 PM
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Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Michele,

Methinks you haven't grasped the fundamentals of the issue. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Calvinists affirm that man is a "free-agent", that is man is a moral being that is capable of choice and is held accountable for the choices made. The bone of contention regards the effects of the Fall. Did man "die" as God promised he would the very day that he ate of the fruit? And what does the Bible teach about that "death"?

Calvinism affirms that man died physically (began to age and would eventually die as a consequence of the Fall), eternally, (to be judged and condemned to eternal punishment for the guilt of the Fall), and spiritually (immediate and radical change in his nature). It is this last item which is relevant to this matter of "free-will". Again, Calvinism teaches that man's nature became corrupt in all its parts. Man's disposition, his inclinations were changed from desiring God and to be an obedient creature under His authority as LORD, to that of hating God and desiring only that which was contrary to God's law and to rebel against His authority.

Man's choices are always determined by his nature. If one's nature is upright (see WSC Q&A #10 in the "Study Center" forum), created in true knowledge, righteousness and holiness, then he will be thus inclined to do that which is good and pleasing to God. If, however, one's nature is corrupt, depraved, sinful, then all the choices made will be likewise, evil and sinful. So, man is surely "free" to choose, but always and only according to his nature.

For further reading go here: Anthropology: The Doctrine of Man.

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: Pilgrim] #12305
Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:12 AM
Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:12 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Michigan, USA
MHeath Offline OP
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Hi Pilgrim <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are right.. I did not grasp it fully. It took me a whole year to grapple with whether or not I believed predestination was true! LOL. Mostly because I had been duped by so much false teaching that i was not about to jump into anything like this so quickly. I wanted to make sure.

Thank you for the articles you provided. I have read one, and am working through another. It is good and not so good to see how a wrong idea, or wrong thinking on a matter (wrong doctrine) can lead down a bad road.

Anyway, hope that made sense.. and thank you again Pilgrim <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Michele

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: MHeath] #12306
Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:09 PM
Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:09 PM
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Posts: 54
Washington State - USA
Bladestunner316 Offline
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man has no freewill it is a selfcentered pride driven myth.

blade

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: Bladestunner316] #12307
Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:18 AM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:18 AM

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Adam had free-will and he chose Satan.

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians #12308
Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:20 AM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:20 AM
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Washington State - USA
Bladestunner316 Offline
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or did he;)

or was it Gods will that had adam fall and Christ bail us(elect) out in order for his own glorification?

blade

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: Bladestunner316] #12309
Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:27 AM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:27 AM

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God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: MHeath] #12310
Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:57 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:57 PM
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Posts: 103
Lenexa, Kansas
DaveVan3 Offline
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Michele: There is a great article on the internet that has helped me greatly in this area. I think Carlos originally posted it sometime back. This is not an article that you can read. It must be studied.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/comp2.html
Dave

Last edited by DaveVan3; Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:10 PM.
Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians #12311
Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:01 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:01 PM
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Illinois
janean Offline
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janean  Offline
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I lean toward predestination, but struggle with beleiving it fully (I'll have to keep reading about this in articles your site). My first thought in why I'm not sure about it, is then doesn't that kind of make us a "puppet" then? That though doesn't make sense to me. So Adam and Eve were the only ones that weren't "puppets"?? Maybe I'm not understanding fully what Calvinism is and you can correct me here.

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: Bladestunner316] #12312
Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:06 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:06 PM

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Blade,
Pilgrim gave you a very good answer on this already Here.

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: janean] #12313
Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:10 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:10 PM
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Illinois
janean Offline
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I forgot to add this too. Another thought as to why I struggle to accept a full predestination beleive, is then what is the point of praying for someone who doesn't beleive. Does it really do anything then, if GOd has determined already who is saved???? This doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: janean] #12314
Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:00 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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Quote
janean said:
I forgot to add this too. Another thought as to why I struggle to accept a full predestination beleive, is then what is the point of praying for someone who doesn't beleive. Does it really do anything then, if GOd has determined already who is saved???? This doesn't make sense to me.

Janean,

First of all, we are commanded to pray! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Second, who is there among men who knows the mind of God? What God has predestined; i.e., who He has chosen to salvation in Christ has not been revealed. Thus, knowing that it is God Who sovereignly regenerates the souls of sinners, who better to pray to? Third, prayer is God's ordained means by which much of His will here on earth is initiated and carried out. And in doing so, we are given the privilege of experiencing the mercy and grace of God exhibited to ourselves and to others. It is in answer to prayer that we find our faith strengthened and our worship of God deepened. For we have a Living God Who hears our cries and deals with us personally.

No, prayer doesn't effect the will of God. Or, put in contemporary phraseology, "prayer doesn't change things". For, God from eternity has foreordained all things for His glory and that which He has foreordained is immutable. But again, God has also foreordained the means by which those things are to come to pass and included His children to share in their outworking.

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: janean] #12315
Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:11 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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Janean,

Your question(s) aren't unique and have been asked by countless others. Here are a few resources which you might find helpful to answer them:

Objections to the Doctrine of Predestination Answered, by Loraine Boettner.

Chosen but Free?, by James Harrison.

The Call that Brings a Response, by Paul Helm.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians #12316
Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:22 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 54
Washington State - USA
Bladestunner316 Offline
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Susan,
I wasnt looking for an answer but giving one:)

blade

Re: Free Will of Christians/non Christians [Re: Pilgrim] #12317
Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:15 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 201
Illinois
janean Offline
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janean  Offline
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Illinois
Ok more questions from me. Back to Theology 101 for me here. Pilgrim quoted to Michelle about the fall the that after Adam's sin there was the change to all mankind "spiritually (immediate and radical change in his nature)." and "man's disposition, his inclinations were changed". (yes I agree and know we're all born with the sin nature because of Adams sin) and that "man's choices are always determined by his nature". Ok this got me thinking what about Adam and Eve themselves, I thought they to had the sin nature too - doesn't Romans 3:23 apply to them? If there was a radical change in mankind's nature then it didn't exist with Adam and Eve? How do you explain why they sinned then? So Adam had a different nature than the rest of mankind? and quoting BookMark "Adam had free-will" - so only Adam had free-will and not us?? What am I missing here?? Thank you for any clarification here. Again I'm <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/crazyeyes.gif" alt="" />

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