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#15732 Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:22 AM
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Our library gets the quarterly from RTS, and I noticed that, in the President's Message of the most recent issue, it says that RTS cooperates with Campus Crusade. They say that the seminary seeks to be "winsomely Reformed" in its evangelism, and yet they say they can do this through Campus Crusade <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
MarieP #15733 Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:06 PM
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RTS works with many different organizations--some are better than others. Remember RTS is NOT a Presbyterian seminary--though they embrace WCF and most of their professors/students are PCA (we had a Methodist student at the first of last year, but he is converted now. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). RTS is run by a board as opposed to a church or pastors, professors, denom.....(which would make for an interesting topic of discussion). Their goal is to get RTS students into such organizations to enact "reformed" change. ...other areas that RTS is in: New Tribe Missions, Wycliffe, World Gospel Missions, etc.

RTS is by no means a perfect seminary (I personally question some of their philosophical ideals), but a still a great place for an education. Most of their professors are great (I have only been disappointed in 1 class out of the 20, or so, I have had this year).


Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #15734 Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:21 PM
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I've heard it is a wonderful seminary. That's why I was surprised they cooperate with CCCI.

Speaking of seminaries in general, Sinclair Ferguson is going to be coming to speak here at Southern next year (as well as Ligon Duncan and Alister Begg) <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ferguson will be speaking at the ETS conference. Is anyone on the discussion board planning on attending?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
MarieP #15735 Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:37 PM
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An impressive list of speakers--WOW. Ferguson is a great speaker and professor. He of course teaches at WTS (Tx), RTS, and Highland Theological in Scotland. He is a tough grader in class....Ligon Duncan is also a fantastic speaker.

Unfortunately I will not be able to attend, but have fun....What would be great is for a group of the Highway's finest to all meet at one of these conferences one year.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #15736 Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:50 PM
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Joe

It has always been a dream of mine to be able to go to conferences such as this one. However, I am afraid at this time because of where I live (Northern B.C.) and because of family commitments, I am unable to attend.
Perhaps one day, after the kids leave home (two years) I will be able to attend a few of these.

Tom

MarieP #15737 Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:06 PM
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Semper - As a Campus Crusade employee (not staff) I find your post insulting and your smear of Campus Crusade by innuendo as un-Christian a sentiment as one can imagine. Your unsupported and I believe unsupportable attack on Campus Crusade is without merit and deserves rebuke.

I am an active member of a PCA church as are the two CCC staff members I work with. Campus Crusade staff members hold positions of authority including elder and deacon at my and other PCA churches in my area.

As someone who both embraces reformed theology, as do the CCC staffers I know, and has signed the CCC statement of faith, I can assure you there are no conflicts between the two. If you have something to say that you believe is of merit, why don't you explain it without the distasteful and smug attitude you display here.

Dear board moderators and other posters. I am sorry to begin my posting on this board with such a critical statement. However, I felt it wasn’t possible nor proper to let this post go unchallenged.

#15738 Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:55 PM
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First of all, let me welcome you to the board, as I hope you find encouragement and fellowship. And I don't mean that flippantly.

However, I do think you reacted rather strongly to my post. I was pointing out the fact that CCCI materials are by and large at odds with Reformed Theology. Take the 4SL, for instance, and the tract that espouses the erroneous doctrine of "the carnal Christian." I have been involved with CCC before, so I am not coming at this with ignornace.

Am I saying there are no sincere believers working in that ministry? Of course not. What I do see, however, is the fact that the materials used by Campus Crusade are basically Arminian in theology.


For previous conversations about CCC, see these threads here and here.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#15739 Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:12 PM
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BillT, I sincerely welcome you to the forum, though you will not like what I have to say.

First, I will say the attitude of your post was uncalled for. I think you should have taken the time to examine SemperReformanda’s (Marie, BTW, she is a real person who use to be affiliated with CCC) posts (pl.) and understand where she was coming from! Your judgment here was presumptuous at best.

Second, I too have friends in the PCA and OPC that are both employed and on staff with CCC. But, they too will tell you in a minute that there are many things wrong both in the way the Gospel is presented at CCC and some of the subject matter: (a) 4 Spiritual Laws (which continues to contribute to a deficient presentation of the biblical Gospel), (b) Jesus Film Project (which violates the 2nd Commandment).

Third, to say that CCC is presenting the Gospel “fully” correct is a misnomer of the infinite sort! The Reformed individuals that I know that are apart of CCC are there to enact "reformed" change, as well as to evangelize. If you are not there for the same purpose then I submit you are simply an Arminian with Reformed rhetoric or have not yet taken the time to examine the doctrine/activity of CCC as compared to the Reformed faith.

IMHO you owe Marie an apology and owe us an explanation of why you believe CCC is totally Reformed.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
MarieP #15740 Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:40 PM
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The 4SL. God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Man is sinful and separated from God. Jesus Christ is the only provision for man's sin. We must individually receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

Well, these are certainly a problem from a reformed perspective!?!?

Further, your claims that "the materials" used by CCC are "basically Arminian" is simply not true. In the vast number of publications that are part of CCC are there places where they wouldn't pass muster, of course. But your blanket statement is as uninformed as it is inaccurate.

I am sorry, but your cursory dismissal of CCC is sad and demonstrative of the kind of "I'm a better Christian because I've got better theology" self-righteousness that, I think, we could all do without.

#15741 Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:52 PM
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Joe - Nowhere did I say that CCC was totally reformed and so that is not something I will defend. The only blanket statements like that, made by anyone were made by Semper regarding CCC materials (and, in effect, CCC in general).

Your point that there are many good folks in CCC that work to improve it and enact reformed change I think supports my point of view quite well. If this were an organization that truly deserved being dismissed as Semper did, why would any bother stay. It was he that basically declared it a worthless organization with his cursory and, I think, mean-spirited dismissal. Seems that maybe there is a bit more there than he is willing to give credit for.

#15742 Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:56 PM
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And BTW, Joe where did I say "that CCC is presenting the Gospel “fully” correct is a misnomer of the infinite sort!" I don't mind the criticism. And you make some fair points about my post but twice in it you attributed to me things I didn't say. Please don't.

#15743 Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:07 PM
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God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.

I wouldn't call God's plan for the non-elect "wonderful" in human terms. Sure, it's God's perfect plan, and it brings God glory, but to say God has a "wonderful" plan for your life is misleading at best.

Plus, when we say "love" here, too many people use this term as if "God loves the sinner and hates the sin." I'd suggest you read this article here. God does show common grace and benevolence to all. To deny that would be hypercalvinist. But that does not mean it is the same as that love which God has toward the believer.

You accuse me a making "cursory dismissal" of CCC. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the standard definition of cursory is "hasty and without attention to detail; not thorough; a passing glance." I think you are the one making cursory remarks. Like I said before, I KNOW the materials the CCC uses because I was a leader in my college chapter as an undergraduate and went to the Charlotte Christmas Conference one year. I even used the 4SL and the Spirit-Filled Life booklets (which I'd like to see how you reconcile with Reformed theology).


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
MarieP #15744 Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:33 PM
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I may be wrong but I find the kind of criticism you make of the 4SL to be a bit nitpicking. Here you are talking about the "non-elect" in the context of an basic introduction to elementary Christian thought. Also, your "love the sinner but hate the sin" is a spin of what the 4SL says.

Now, I don't want you to not understand my own beliefs of how important the Gospel is. I believe it to be the absolute center of of my faith, my salvation and my sanctification. I belive it needs to be taught fully and clearly. However, it's not like that is the only teaching on the Gospel that CCC offers. I don't even think it's used very much anymore. I know we don't use it in any of our regular programs. To condem CCC on this seems a bit thin.

As far as my calling you dismissal cursory I would point you back to your original post. You dismiss CCC out of hand without any explanaton whatsoever. "They say that the seminary seeks to be "winsomely Reformed" in its evangelism, and yet they say they can do this through Campus Crusade." You don't find this cursory? Boy, what would qualify.

#15745 Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:42 PM
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However, it's not like that is the only teaching on the Gospel that CCC offers. I don't even think it's used very much anymore. I know we don't use it in any of our regular programs.

Then what DO you use?

And what of the "Spirit-Filled Life" tracts? You still haven't answered my queston there.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
MarieP #15746 Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:20 PM
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We don't really use the Spirit Filled Life tracts either. We do use a really wide variety of materials from both inside and outside CCC. Stuff from Os Guiness, Rick Warren, bible studies from my PCA church, Francis Schaeffer, Your Life in Christ (CCC), Armand Nicholi, Satisfied (CCC), Sacred Romance (Curtis & Eldridge), the Alpha Study. You seem to see CCC as a monolithic organization with strict adherance to certain CCC materials. That isn't my experiance.

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