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Tom
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Re: Here's a Thought [Re: Tom] #20058
Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:02 AM
Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:02 AM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Tom,

Again, IF you were to familiarize yourself with Warren's writings/teachings, you would conclude that it would be unnecessary to contact the man or his ministry to get a reply to such a question. Come on now, how many times have you sent off e-mails asking doctrinal questions and/or for clarification about a statement someone made, e.g., Billy Graham, only to get in return some generic response which in many cases is irrelevant to the question asked? So, in most instances, such questions never really get answered and further more often than not, cloud the matter even more. After reading the Larry King transcript of his guest Rick Warren, you are not fully convinced that this man is so fraught with errors that trying to clarify this one issue would be an exercise in futility, I doubt anything I or even Rick Warren himself would satisfy you. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


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Re: Here's a Thought [Re: Pilgrim] #20059
Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 AM
Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 AM
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Chicagoland
gotribe Offline

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The first question I was asked after 9/11 was, OK, where was God? And my answer, where was God when all this happened? He's where he's always been -- and that is in the hearts of the people who were there doing the rescuing, doing the caring. It was a great opportunity. Even good came out of that terrible, terrible tragedy, in that there was heroism, and character grew.


God, where He has always been in the hearts of the people who care!?!

Rick Warren's God is very small to be defined by and contained in "the people." Not even HIS people. Even the good he says came out of 911 has nothing to do with our REAL PURPOSE--to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

This makes me sad, it makes me grieve for those who have settled for this god who can only be revealed in and through sinful men instead of our transcendant, majestic, wise, all powerful Holy God!


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: Here's a Thought [Re: gotribe] #20060
Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:25 AM
Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:25 AM
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neicey Offline
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Quote

This makes me sad, it makes me grieve for those who have settled for this god who can only be revealed in and through sinful men instead of our transcendant, majestic, wise, all powerful Holy God!


So if you would not mind, please finish answering the question, that was given to Rick.

neicey

Re: Here's a Thought [Re: neicey] #20061
Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:16 AM
Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:16 AM
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gotribe Offline

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God was where He has always been. On His throne, Sovereignly upholding and sustaining His creation. Bringing to pass all that He, in His wisdom and power, has ordained.


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: Here's a Thought [Re: gotribe] #20062
Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:53 AM
Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:53 AM
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neicey Offline
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Thanks gotribe <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> I understand what your saying but, this is what Rick said.
(and that is in the hearts of the people who were there doing the rescuing, doing the caring.)
Now I believe all good that is done by people is from God, it does not matter if they are born again or not, for God to use them, for what ever reason he has. So I get what Rick is saying. if he would have said GOD ordained 911,then I think maybe all hell would break loose because of people not understanding GOD is in control of all things.So he then would not be a freewiller.
Did I put that together right ? anybody can respond <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

neicey

Re: Here's a Thought [Re: neicey] #20063
Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:55 PM
Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:55 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
neicey said:
Thanks gotribe <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> I understand what your saying but, this is what Rick said. (and that is in the hearts of the people who were there doing the rescuing, doing the caring.)

neicey,

I am going to have to respond by saying that I STRONGLY disagree with your assessment, i.e., that what Kim said in regard to where God was during 911 and what Rick Warren said are the same or even remotely similar. There is SOoooooooo much wrong (unbiblical) with Warren's statement that it would take me far too long to respond to all of it. But let me just address a couple of the more obvious things:

(1) God does not dwell in the hearts of unbelievers; in Warren's estimation, He dwells in the hearts of those who do what is perceived as "good", e.g., the rescue workers, etc. First, no man does good!! Second, God only dwells in the hearts of those who have been made alive by the Holy Spirit, Who having created a new nature which is fit for His presence, dwells therein; that person having been reconciled to God through faith in Christ. That God uses wicked men, women and children to accomplish His purpose on earth to His ultimate glory and for the good of His own, the Church is decidedly not the same thing as "being in the hearts" of all those who do acts of compassion to their fellow man. The God of the Bible is a sovereign King Who presently rules all of His creation in an objective manner, including the taking of lives in what we as humans call "tragedies". (cf. Isa 45:7)

(2) Here is a perfect example of what happens when a person believes that they can "learn truth" from all the other religions. What Warren said and thus is teaching, at least in part, a part that has been co-mingled with historic Christianity, is the "god" embraced by such Liberals as Friedrich Schleiermacher. To Schleiermacher, religion was "a sense of community", it is not the creation of ecclesiastical institutions and dogma; rather, it is their creator. It emerges out of a prior community and is rooted in a dimension of self-consciousness that cannot be expunged from the nature that is fully human. Put more simply, "god" is when people come together for a singular purpose for the betterment of their fellow man. The point here is that Rick Warren's "religion" is an admixture of various "truth" which he has found in "all religions".

I cannot find a "better" definition and/or understanding of true faith in sources other than the inspired Scriptures. But for people like Warren, they seem to think that although the Bible is "sufficient" to a degree, other religions are able to add to one's understanding of such things as faith which are helpful in that they can "expand upon" that which the Bible teaches. It's like going to a Bible study where the infamous question is asked of those sitting around in a circle, "What does this text mean to you?". You are then encouraged to listen to each person's response and then by combining all that people have said, you come to a "fuller/better" understanding of what the passage means compared to only relying upon your own "feelings" about what the text says. There is no OBJECTIVITY....... no OBJECTIVE truth which one is to discover and submit to. It all becomes a matter of what one "feels" the text means, i.e., how the text "moves you", etc.... which again comes right out of the repository teachings of neo-Orthodoxy, e.g., Karl Barth, &co.

The most dangerous teachings a Christian can be confronted with are those that contain both truth and error, because they do have an appearance of verity to them. And most always, what is included in such teachings is the warning, "Be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater." Which is another one of Satan's deceptions, i.e., allow error to dwell alongside of truth since YOU cannot be absolutely sure that error is error or even that what you think is truth is really truth. Doubt is a most valuable weapon used by the Evil One, "Yea, hath God said . . .?"

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Here's a Thought [Re: Pilgrim] #20064
Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:42 PM
Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:42 PM
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Chicagoland
gotribe Offline

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Hi Neicy,

Pilgrim answered you much better than I can, but I would like to add one thing. Rick Warren starts in the wrong place. He starts with man instead of God. In trying to make sense of tragedy, he looks first to the deeds of men, as if God is somehow excused for His having allowed this tragedy to happen because of the good deeds that man has done in response. Do you see how backward that is?


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: It's Postmoderism error [Re: Pilgrim] #20065
Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:14 PM
Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:14 PM
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janean Offline OP
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Yes I totally agree with you Pilgrim and your response to Tom. All one has to do is read his material, and the biblical, discerning Christian will see for themself what I've seen (and also maybe with a little help from critiques also). And as far as Tom's comment about wondering if Rick Warren really beleives in the objective Truth, that is exactly one of the things I've suspected. And what I see is that it's the postmodern thinking that I've seen creep right into my church. And along with it is a low standard of the Word of God - and this is VERY evident with Rick Warren.

I know many here have not bothered to read Rick Warren. I wouldn't either, if I didn't know anyone else that were reading it and I weren't right in the thick of it with the church I'm in. But unfortunately I'm right in the thick of it and know many neighbors and relatives that have read the book and gone through the 40 days and our church did it. On a positive note, after going through the program, some of our leaders saw some red flags, ie. like the pathetic invitation to Christ and no dramatic change that I think some expected as a result. And there's a video too that goes with the 40 day program. And believe it or not the "invitation" for a person to receive Christ is actually WORSE in the tape than the book!!!! That's what I remember. And I did make a comment and so did my husband in our group about it.

Over the last several months I have read several critiques of Rick Warren's Purpose book. One of the most interesting one I found was by Don Venoit of MidWest Christian Outreach (an apologetics ministry in the Chicagoland area). Unfortunately the article is not on line to put here for you, but he analyzed just this one part from Rick Warren's book and it was so eye opening to me to the "twisting" of ideas from God's Word. From what I know of some of you here and your wonderful background of knowledge from Scripture I bet you see the problems too with this:

from page 9 and 10 of The Purpose Driven Life=

"YOUR NEXT 40 DAYS

Today the average life span is 25,550 days. That's how long you will live if you are typical. Don't you think it would be a wise use of time to set aside 40 of those days to figure out what God wants you to do with the rest of them?
The Bible is clear that God considers 40 days a spiritually significant time period. Whenever God wanted to prepare someone for his purposes, he took 40 days:

-Noah's life was transformed by 40 days of rain.
-Moses was transformed by 40 days on Mount Sinai.
-The spies were transformed by 40 days in the Promised Land.
-David was transformed by Goliath's 40-day challenge.
-Elijah was transformed when God gave him 40 days of strength from a single meal.
-The entire city of Ninevah was transformed when God gave the people 40 days to change.
-Jesus was empowered by 40 days in the wilderness.
-The disciples were transformed by 40 days with Jesus after his resurrection.

The next 40 days will transform your life." (This section is followed by about 2 more paragraphs of more hype of how the 40 days and his book will transform and change your life)

Re: It's Postmoderism error [Re: janean] #20066
Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:23 PM
Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:23 PM

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Re: Here's a Thought [Re: Pilgrim] #20067
Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:37 AM
Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:37 AM
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Maryland
neicey Offline
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Thanks Pilgrim,
I must have said something not in the right way, I didnot mean to say they were the same,but that GOD was there with then from the start to the end.I did not mean to limit GOD to only the rescue workers.I said something about Rick and how he would not give more to GOD in 911, because he is of freewill thinking. If he went on to say more he would have had a lot of explaining to do,about how GOD was in control of all 911 to the people who want to believe that they make the decision for Christ.
Rick wanted to appeal to the people,you know get there mind and emotions stirring, so they would be interested in his book.Pilgrim I was thinking scripture really,Rick said he does not like pride, then my mind went to moses in numbers 20 I believe it is anyway, about how moses did not speak of GOD to the people but hit the rock twice,more pride peaking its ugly head there to.

neicey

Re: Rick Warren Quote [Re: janean] #20068
Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:27 PM
Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:27 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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For anyone interested, a while back Modern Reformation interviewed Rick Warren, that interview can be found here:
http://www.christianity.com/partner/Arti...1694210,00.html

Tom

Re: Rick Warren Quote [Re: janean] #20069
Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:22 PM
Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:22 PM
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Western Oregon
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gnarley Offline
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One of the problems that I had with the book was the massive versions of the bible used. I get the gut feeling that when so many varied "versions" are necessary to teach a truth, they are being used to support a presupposition, rather than gaining one from reading all the references in a good, recognized accurate translation to begin with


gil
Re: Rick Warren Quote [Re: gnarley] #20070
Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:26 AM
Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:26 AM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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gnarley

A very good point, I believe one of the versions (or should I say perversions?) is called 'The Message'.
I was given 'The Message' and as I read it I can't understand how a Reformed Christian could give it a thumbs up, which unfortunately there are Reformed Christians that do.
Compare the writing of 'The Message' with a literal translation and at places you get a different meaning altogether. Maybe that is because Eugene Peterson (the author of 'The Message') claims to be a Reformed Christian?
But then again Rick Warren claims to believe in the 5 Solas, so what does that say? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:30 AM.
Re: Rick Warren Quote [Re: Tom] #20071
Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:38 AM
Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:38 AM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
Tom said:
But then again Rick Warren claims to believe in the 5 Solas, so what does that say? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

That one could conclude that his definition of "believe in" is a far different thing than that which I have. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />


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PS [Re: Tom] #20072
Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:47 PM
Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:47 PM
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Tom Offline
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In case anyone is interested in why I posted the link to MR's interview of Rick Warren. It was because I thought it was an interesting interview. However, on reflection I have to say that although Rick Warren claimed to believe in things like the 5 Solas. If he actually did, he wouldn't have written the Purpose Driven books.
Those books are in direct conflict with what he said in the interview.
I have to conclude then that the interview made his teaching that much more dangerous. His teaching has caused some people of Reformed persuasion to defend him.

Tom

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