Donations for the month of October


We have received a total of $20 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
Johan
Johan
South Africa
Posts: 326
Joined: October 2006
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,695
Posts51,473
Members930
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,526
Tom 3,546
chestnutmare 2,920
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,771
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 24
Pilgrim 15
Susan 4
Johan 2
John_C 2
grit 1
Recent Posts
Very Interesting Eschatological Discussion
by Tom. Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:50 PM
Agree or Disagree and Why?
by Tom. Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:09 PM
Ever heard of Michael Heiser
by Tom. Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:02 PM
ADHD
by Tom. Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:47 AM
Quoting Scripture a Comfort?
by Tom. Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:53 PM
Looking for information
by Tom. Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:51 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #21988
Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
Chicagoland
gotribe Offline

Old Hand
gotribe  Offline

Old Hand
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
Chicagoland
Speratus,

I haven't participated in any of these conversations, although I have read them. But I just have to jump in here. It seems to me that while you desperately try to take a step away from universalism, what you posted above can only be understood as universalism.

For example:

Quote
He has entrusted to them the office of proclaiming the fact of the reconciliation of all men, the fact that God is actually reconciled to all men through Christ.


If a fact is still a fact, if reconciliation still means reconciliation, and actually still means actually, then how else must we read this statement? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #21989
Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:45 AM
Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
speratus said:
You have really butchered a simple text! When Paul says "the world", he means "the world". The text speaks of reconciliation of all men and the ministry of reconciliation, the means by which believers obtain the reconciliation.

Quote
Popular Commentary, by Paul E. Kretzmann,
But the final source of the blessings is the Lord Himself: But all things from God, who has reconciled us to Himself, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation. God is the Creator of all the wonderful things which are given to man in his conversion. By a twofold act he brings about the spiritual creation in the heart of man. In the first place, He reconciled all mankind to Himself through Christ. It was God Himself that planned the salvation, the atonement of mankind through the sacrifice of Christ. All men were, by their own fault, His enemies and wanted nothing of Him. But since His righteousness and holiness would therefore have been obliged to condemn them to everlasting punishment, He found this way by which the enmity might be removed and the friendly relations intended by Him in the beginning be established. This reconciliation was brought about by Christ for all men, by His vicarious work; it is a historical fact. And now the second act of God’s mercy comes into consideration, namely, that he has given to the apostle and his fellow-workers, to the ministers of the Gospel at all times, the ministry of the reconciliation, He has entrusted to them the office of proclaiming the fact of the reconciliation of all men, the fact that God is actually reconciled to all men through Christ.

Against my better judgment to continue in this series of posts, the absence of the article before world in 2 Cor 5:19 leaves us to contemplate the abstract significance of this word (read pp 206-290 in the chapters entitled The Article in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Daniel Wallace for more information). It was “a world,” not “the world,” that God was reconciling to Himself. Thus, when Paul says "a world," he means "a world" (note the a world being reconciled was in the world). Hodge states concerning the phrase the world,

Quote
… This is an indefinite statement, merely indicating the sort of beings toward whom God was revealing himself as propitious. In the same sense our Lord is called the Saviour of the world or the Saviour of mankind. (Hodge, Charles. 2 Corinthians. Crossway classic commentaries, 2 Co 5:19. Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books, 1995).

Reconciling in 2 Cor 5:19 is a present tense participle revealing God continues to reconcile people to himself. Thus, reconciling the world takes place in and through Christ as a continuing activity. “Not reckoning unto them their trespasses,” is also a present tense of the participle, which indicates that God continues to release believers from their guilt. Clearly the Popular Commentary is a poor comment on the truth of Scripture. Your defense of the heretical doctrine of universalism is refuted! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />

Free Greek (and Hebrew) fonts for reading the attachment are here.

Attached Files-Click on Image to view full size.
48740-Greek 2 Cor 519.doc (899 downloads)
Last edited by J_Edwards; Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:57 AM.

Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy [Re: gotribe] #21990
Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:43 PM
Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:43 PM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Quote
gotribe said:
If a fact is still a fact, if reconciliation still means reconciliation, and actually still means actually, then how else must we read this statement?


Yes, the reconciliation is an accomplished fact for all men; however, the finished work of reconciliation does no one any good unless it is apprehended through the ministry of reconciliation (i.e., the means of grace). God has caused the word to go forth in preaching and in the sacraments that the Holy Spirit may work faith when and where it pleases God.

Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy [Re: J_Edwards] #21991
Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:16 PM
Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:16 PM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Quote
Against my better judgment to continue in this series of posts, the absence of the article before world in 2 Cor 5:19 leaves us to contemplate the abstract significance of this word (read pp 206-290 in the chapters entitled The Article in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Daniel Wallace for more information). It was “a world,” not “the world,” that God was reconciling to Himself. Thus, when Paul says "a world," he means "a world" (note the a world being reconciled was in the world).


A world that includes every person who ever lived or will live:

Quote
Objective Justification in Our Mission Outreach: An Exegesis of 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 by David P. Kushe
ko/smon. With this word Paul clearly teaches that God's act of reconciliation covers the whole world. It applies to the whole world, to every person, whether he lived before Christ, or at the time of Christ, or any time since Christ, or in any of the time still remaining before Christ comes again. Thus everyone is included in this word regardless of whether he ever comes to faith or not.
This same truth is taught in the similar context of Colossians 1. There in verses 16 and 20 we read: "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible … and through him (God was pleased) to reconcile to himself all things (ta_ pa/nta), whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
In this context it is also most important to note that ko/smon in verse 19 is parallel to h9ma=j in verse 18. Remember that verse 19 is an expansion or explanation of verse 18 (cf. w(j o3ti) and then it becomes apparent that Paul is indicating that our reconciliation as believers is assured by the fact that the world was reconciled.

e9autw~|. As in verse 18 this pronoun is added to stress that God did not reconcile the people of the world to one another, but rather reconciled the whole world as a group to himself.

mh\ logizo/menoj. This participle is in apposition to h]n katalla/sswn and thus explains God's Christ-worked-world-reconciliation as merely a matter of accounting. Every individual in the world sinned and thereby incurred an unpayable amount on his account before God. Here Paul refers to the truth that while Christ was on earth he lived a perfect life which God put on the account of all men and he died as the substitute for all which God also credited to the account of all (cf. v 14b). Since by this perfect life and death Christ "blotted out the handwriting of ordinances which was against us" (Col 2:14), God no longer imputed anyone's sins to him; they were imputed to Christ. In verse 21 this truth is described in this way that "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." It is important to note that this appositional mh\ logizo/menoj makes God's act of reconciliation basically one of negative accounting (i.e., not imputing, or not charging) rather than some kind of inner change in God or in man. God never changed in either his love or his justice; he loved man e0n xristw|~, and e0n xristw~| the justice which God's holiness required as the punishment for sin was satisfied completely. The spiritual change in man is worked, as Paul said in verse 17, only after he is "in Christ" and thus becomes a totally "new creation" who despises sin and loves God's good and gracious will. The only change which took place as a result of God's Christ-worked-world-reconciliation was in every sinner's account before God.


Quote
Reconciling in 2 Cor 5:19 is a present tense participle revealing God continues to reconcile people to himself. Thus, reconciling the world takes place in and through Christ as a continuing activity. “Not reckoning unto them their trespasses,” is also a present tense of the participle, which indicates that God continues to release believers from their guilt.


Your interpretation of the text is untenable:

Quote
A Note on Qe/menov in 2 Corinthians 5:19 by Dr. Siegbert W. Becker
If we interpret qe/menov as a circumstantial participle, as opponents of universal justification do, then whatever temporal significance this past participle has must be determined by the tense of the principal verb. It would then refer to an action which precedes the time indicated by h]n. It would in that case have to mean that after God had committed to Paul and the other apostles the word of reconciliation, he was, or existed, in Christ. In other words, Paul would be saying that the commissioning of the apostles antedates the incarnarion. But biblical history clearly demonstrates that the great commission was given after the resurrection and is in reality based on it (Lk 24:46f).
It is sometimes argued that since katalla&sswn is a present participle and qe/menov is an aorist, the commissioning of Paul must precede the reconciling, and for that reason the reconciliation spoken of here is one that takes place when the word of reconciliation is preached and men come to faith. This is absolutely untenable, since the temporal significance of a participle is determined first of all by the tense of the main verb and not by the tense of the other participles in the sentence.
We are therefore forced to interpret h]n…qe/menov as periphrastic. Paul used an aorist rather than a present participle because a present participle with h]n yields an imperfect tense. Such an imperfect tense (as in h]n…katalla&sswn) correctly portrays God's work of reconciling, since that was an ongoing work which began with the incarnation and ended with the resurrection. An imperfect tense, however, could hardly be used to describe the commissioning of Paul, which took place at a very definite and limited time when Paul was called to carry the gospel to the Gentiles. Therefore only an aorist construction serves to express what actually happened.

Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #21992
Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:53 PM
Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:53 PM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Quote
Yes, the reconciliation is an accomplished fact for all men; however, the finished work of reconciliation does no one any good unless it is apprehended through the ministry of reconciliation (i.e., the means of grace).


Either it is accomplished, or it a only a possibility. Which is it?


God bless,

william

Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #21993
Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:13 PM
Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Quote
speratus said:

A Note on Que/Menlo in 2 Corinthians 5:19 by Dr. Egbert W. Becker
If we interpret Que/Menlo as a circumstantial participle, as opponents of universal justification do, then whatever temporal significance this past participle has must be determined by the tense of the principal verb. . . . We are therefore forced to interpret h]n…Que/Menlo as periphrastic. Paul used an airiest rather than a present participle because a present participle with h]n yields an imperfect tense. Such an imperfect tense (as in h]n…Natala&sswn) correctly portrays God's work of reconciling, since that was an ongoing work which began with the incarnation and ended with the resurrection. An imperfect tense, however, could hardly be used to describe the commissioning of Paul, which took place at a very definite and limited time when Paul was called to carry the gospel to the Gentiles. Therefore only an airiest construction serves to express what actually happened.

If you believe that Becker's exegesis of this text is correct, then you must now cease from denying that you believe in "universal salvation", for the author clearly states that his view is against those who oppose "universal justification"; i.e., he embraces universal justification. Unless you are going to insist that "universal" doesn't mean "all-encompassing" (every man, woman and child that has existed, does currently exist and will exist", and that "justification" doesn't mean "declared righteous" as did Luther, Chemnitz, Calvin, Knox, Edwards, Owen, et AL, then the conclusion that you embrace "universal salvation" is inescapable and incontrovertible.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #21994
Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:21 PM
Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Quote
sprats said:
Yes, the reconciliation is an accomplished fact for all men; however, the finished work of reconciliation does no one any good unless it is apprehended through the ministry of reconciliation (i.e., the means of grace). God has caused the word to go forth in preaching and in the sacraments that the Holy Spirit may work faith when and where it pleases God.

Pray tell, how is your "universal reconciliation" different from that of the Arminians who believe exactly what you are proposing. It is this very same heresy which was proposed by the Remonstrance in 1617 by the followers of Jacobus Arminius which was rejected by unanimous vote in 1619 by representatives of the Protestant churches.

How is even conceivable that one for whom Christ died secured reconciliation with God will spend eternity in everlasting punishment? [Linked Image]

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #21995
Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:55 PM
Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,546
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,546
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I am dumb founded at how Lutherans can accuse us of being "synergists" after reading what Speratus has to say in this thread. If I correctly understand what he is saying, Lutherans are the synergists, not us.

Tom

Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #21996
Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:16 PM
Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Speratus, you truly need to be more careful in whose commentaries you read and cite. Both of these are horrible in both their Greek and theology. We will look at only a few of Kushe’s errors since Pilgrim has already destroyed your point in Becker. However, I do hope you will take the time and reply to Pilgrim’s post.

Quote
With this word Paul clearly teaches that God's act of reconciliation covers the whole world. It applies to the whole world, to every person, whether he lived before Christ, or at the time of Christ, or any time since Christ, or in any of the time still remaining before Christ comes again. Thus everyone is included in this word regardless of whether he ever comes to faith or not.

Speratus, if the “whole world” is reconciled NOW then there is no need for the word of reconciliation. However, you have ALL unbelievers, without exception, reconciled and thus none can ever be lost--which is universalism!

In addition, you fail to realize the truth of the “now, but not yet” theology of the Kingdom of God and the similarities/differences in the inauguration, continuation, and consummation of the KOG. The KOG is here and yet not in its fulness. However, this is covenant theology which I am sure you have not had time to study and digest.

Quote
This same truth is taught in the similar context of Colossians 1. There in verses 16 and 20 we read: "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible … and through him (God was pleased) to reconcile to himself all things (ta_ pa/nta), whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

So now you have the Devil and his whole demonic host reconciled to God and yet we still have temptation, sin, and problems on the earth. Do you see just a small problem here? The devils believe and tremble.

Quote
Since by this perfect life and death Christ "blotted out the handwriting of ordinances which was against us" (Col 2:14), God no longer imputed anyone's sins to him; they were imputed to Christ.

If God no longer holds anyone’s sins against them then ALL, without exception, are saved. If ALL are reconciled and are at peace with God, then even the sin of unbelief would be covered and thus none could disbelieve—not even Satan himself could be lost, since according to you he is now reconciled. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy [Re: Pilgrim] #21997
Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 AM
Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Quote
Pilgrim said:

If you believe that Becker's exegesis of this text is correct, then you must now cease from denying that you believe in "universal salvation", for the author clearly states that his view is against those who oppose "universal justification"; i.e., he embraces universal justification. Unless you are going to insist that "universal" doesn't mean "all-encompassing" (every man, woman and child that has existed, does currently exist and will exist", and that "justification" doesn't mean "declared righteous" as did Luther, Chemnitz, Calvin, Knox, Edwards, Owen, et AL, then the conclusion that you embrace "universal salvation" is inescapable and incontrovertible.


You are quite right that the early Reformers (Lutheran anyway), while affirming Universal Atonement, spoke only of justication by faith alone not Universal Justification. Those in LCMS who uphold the Brief Statement say Luther, Chemnitz, Speratus, etc. taught the concept of Universal Justification (I will spare you from their numerous citations). They say there was no need of a Universal Justification formulation until Arminians began teaching that men are justified in view of foreseen faith.

On this point, I disagree with them because the Book of Concord clearly teaches against "foreseen faith." I don't see any new heresy that would require a new formulation. With respect to their thesis of two justifications: Objective (Universal)/Subjective (Justification by Faith Alone), I have requested more scriptural support from them. In any event, it will remain a thesis until it receives unanimous approval by the Lutheran Church.

Scripture teaches Christ has atoned for the sins of all men. On the basis of that atonement, can we say that God has objectively declared all men righteous apart from faith? Or, would that go beyond scripture?

To frame the question in a form that the Reform can relate to, are the elect declared righteous before Regeneration? What say you?

Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #21998
Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:05 PM
Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:05 PM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Quote
averagefellar said:
Quote
Yes, the reconciliation is an accomplished fact for all men; however, the finished work of reconciliation does no one any good unless it is apprehended through the ministry of reconciliation (i.e., the means of grace).


Either it is accomplished, or it a only a possibility. Which is it?



Is it an accomplished fact for the elect who are not regenerate? Or only a possibility?

Are the elect reconciled to God before faith? If so, what need is there for justification by faith? If not, is not the atonement alone sufficient to reconcile the elect?

Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #21999
Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:55 PM
Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Quote
speratus said:
Scripture teaches Christ has atoned for the sins of all men. On the basis of that atonement, can we say that God has objectively declared all men righteous apart from faith? Or, would that go beyond scripture?

You are beginning with an erroneous assumption and one that has never been able to be defended from Scripture. We have gone over this countless times here and you simply have ignored the biblical doctrine of a "Definite Atonement" or to use another term "Particular Redemption" and rested upon "Formula of Concorde" rather than "Sola Scriptura", which you being a Lutheran surprises me.

The FACT is that Scripture teaches that Christ atoned for all the sins of all the elect; those whom the Father gave Him, those who were predestined in love from eternity, etc. (Ph 1:4-13 and countless other passages). His atonement was vicarious and SUBSTITUTIONARY. In case you haven't grasped the significance of what it means that the Lord Christ died a SUBSTITUTIONARY death, i.e., (Grok: hyper) "in the place of", "in behalf of", etc. In His death God was satisfied, i.e, ALL that was required for salvation was met and the means by which those for whom He died was secured "for them", e.g., regeneration, calling, faith, repentance and perseverance. (Rom 8:29, 30) Thus, again, the atonement of Christ 1) satisfied ALL of the judicial requirements and the penalty due those for whom He died. The atonement thus accomplished EVERYTHING necessary for the redemption of those whom God predestinated to eternal life. 2) secured ALL that was necessary for the elect to receive the benefits of that atonement which Christ merited "for them". The means by which the elect apprehend those benefits are applied to them in time through the work of the Holy Spirit, Who regenerates them, creates faith and repentance in them, calls them to faith in conjunction with the Word, clothes them with the righteousness of Christ, dwells within them and forever guides and upholds them until they are called home to be glorified before the throne of God.

It is utterly illogical, inconceivable and impossible that any for whom Christ substituted Himself and accomplished a full atonement of ALL that God required and that which was necessary for: propitiation, redemption, sacrificial satisfaction and reconciliation should then be brought before the judgment seat of Christ and be found guilty for that which He Himself had already atoned and then cast them into eternal hell to suffer the penalty which Christ Himself previously suffered "in their place/behalf". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Then speratus asks:
To frame the question in a form that the Reform can relate to, are the elect declared righteous before Regeneration? What say you?

I say absolutely not. The application of that which was objectively secured by Christ's atonement is done in time; the exact moment as foreordained by God in eternity through the means which He also foreordained. One is ONLY justified when their is personal union with Christ. And that union is only actualized by faith; a faith which is wrought by the Holy Spirit in regeneration. Though their (elects) justification was eternally ordained and infallible secured by Christ in his atonement the application of it occurs in time.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy [Re: Pilgrim] #22000
Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:05 PM
Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,546
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,546
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Pilgrim said:
Quote
You are beginning with an erroneous assumption and one that has never been able to be defended from Scripture. We have gone over this countless times here and you simply have ignored the biblical doctrine of a "Definite Atonement" or to use another term "Particular Redemption" and rested upon "Formula of Concorde" rather than "Sola Scriptura", which you being a Lutheran surprises me.


This doesn't surprise me at all, because he is consistant with other Lutherans that I have been in contact with. Mainly at the Reformed Reader open forum.

Tom

Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy [Re: Tom] #22001
Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:48 PM
Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Quote
Tom said:
This doesn't surprise me at all, because he is consistant with other Lutherans that I have been in contact with. Mainly at the Reformed Reader open forum.

Tom,

It is surprising to me because they claim to be devote followers of Martin Luther; so much so that they even took his name for their denomination: "Lutherans". And Martin Luther, for the most part, stood firm against Rome upon the doctrine of "Sola Scriptura" and not some "Formula of Concorde" or any other document written by man. His new found faith came from the written Word of God, and it was upon IT that he said, "Here I stand . . ."

The formulas of men, whether they be the "Forumula of Concorde", the "Westminster Confession of Faith", the "Belgic Confession", etc., are ALL subject to biblical scrutiny. And where they err, they should not be followed. But it isn't just the Lutherans who are "denominational Borgs", such individuals are to be found in EVERY denomination and non-denominational group. These individuals will attempt to defend their group against anything and everyone, even if it is shown that something which that group holds to be true is clearly contrary to Scripture. Their allegiance is ill-placed; upon a man, denomination, movement, ideal, etc., instead of the inerrant, infallible written Word of God alone..... SOLA SCRIPTURA. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: LCMS Brief Statement is Accused of Heresy #22002
Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:13 PM
Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:13 PM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


I think you are confusing the purpose of the atonement, to actually pay for sin, and the proces of conversion.


God bless,

william

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 35 guests, and 106 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SnydersSoapbox, Susan, reformedbygrace, ReformedDisciple, Micki Bowman
930 Registered Users
Shout Box
October
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Today's Birthdays
timothy
Popular Topics(Views)
826,970 Gospel truth
Page Time: 0.056s Queries: 17 (0.005s) Memory: 3.0004 MB (Peak: 3.3094 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-10-19 22:33:22 UTC