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Terri Schiavo Case #22536
Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:27 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline OP
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CovenantInBlood  Offline OP
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Virginia
I don't know if many of you have been following the Terri Schiavo case (Joe, I know you're in Fla.), but there's recently been some good news—Judge Greer has prevented the removal of her feeding tube, which would cause her death, for the next 48 hours.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22537
Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:19 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:19 PM

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Removal of her feeding tube wouldn't cause her death. Her inability to live without machinery would. That's the dilemma, without the hoses and machines, this person is already dead.


God bless,

william

Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22538
Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:24 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
J_Edwards Offline
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Needless to say, this is making the local news a lot. A lot of Churches are in prayer concerning the situation as well. What is frightful is what this may lead to in the future both for Schiavo and ... The courts continue to set precedents ...


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Terri Schiavo Case #22539
Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:23 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline OP
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2003
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Virginia
Quote
averagefellar said:
Removal of her feeding tube wouldn't cause her death. Her inability to live without machinery would. That's the dilemma, without the hoses and machines, this person is already dead.


Actually, William, that's not true, although many people have made it out to be the case. Terri is neither dead nor dying. The only thing "artificial" is that she is fed through a tube, but there are plenty of very alive people in the world who are fed through a tube due to disabilities. Although she has brain damage, Terri breathes on her own and is aware of her surroundings. She may even be able to swallow food and to improve with therapy, but we don't know because her "husband" has made sure that she isn't spoonfed and isn't allowed therapy. You can see http://www.terrisfight.org/ for more information.

I daresay her overall condition, especially given the care and attention shown by her parents and siblings, is better than a lot of the orphans I worked with in China this summer who had cerebral palsy.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22540
Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:29 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 116
D.J. Offline
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Quote
That's the dilemma, without the hoses and machines, this person is already dead.


There are folks who need oxygen tanks to breath. Ever see them? They usually pull them along on a small two-wheeled cart. Without those they would be dead, but I don't see them as already dead. Do you?

Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22541
Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:45 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:45 PM

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Are you trying to tell me that this person lives anything close to a normal life? How far do we go in letting Big Brother order our lives around in the name of some outside chance of survival? Technology could keep many of us alive for incredibly long periods of time, are we willing to have "life extension" become our guide for legal decisions? Oh, the interpretation of exactly what and how she feels isn't unanymous.

David W.

Poor comparison. And yes, without those bottles, they would be dead. How far are you willing to let the government force you to hook up to machines to live forever?


God bless,

william

Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22542
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:03 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:03 PM
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Posts: 116
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The fact here is the opposite. Big brother (in this case the court) is trying to kill her and her mother and father want her to live. The court has ignored all evidence and testimony that she could be rehabilitated and is taking the side of her estranged husband who is not even part of her life anymore. He has remarried and fathered children with another women, but he still wants her dead.

Re: Terri Schiavo Case #22543
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:03 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline OP
Persnickety Presbyterian
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Virginia
Quote
averagefellar said:
Are you trying to tell me that this person lives anything close to a normal life?


No, I am not. But her ability to lead a "normal life" should not be the standard in determining whether she ought to be starved to death. The fact is that as long as she gets food and water, she'll be alive. That's the same for all of us. I would not deny you food and water simply because you aren't capable of leading a "normal life."

Quote
How far do we go in letting Big Brother order our lives around in the name of some outside chance of survival? Technology could keep many of us alive for incredibly long periods of time, are we willing to have "life extension" become our guide for legal decisions?


William, don't you think it's a FAR WORSE precedent to set that the courts can order that you be starved to death because you are not able to defend yourself against an unfaithful spouse who no longer cares to be burdened with your existence? These aren't "extraordinary means" being employed, here. All Terri absolutely requires is food and water, and we're not even certain that she must receive that sustenance through a tube. Also, there's really not a lot of technology involved, here. No machine is required. As I said before, she breathes on her own, and is able to digest food.

Quote
Oh, the interpretation of exactly what and how she feels isn't unanymous.


All the more reason not to starve her to death, don't you think?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Terri Schiavo Case #22544
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:07 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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averagefellar,

I can certainly understand your point and I do believe it has some merit . . . with this qualification: The decision to either go on or be taken off life-support be that of that individual and not someone else's. My personal request is that in such an event that the only thing standing between "life" and death is full life-support, that I be allowed to go home and not be subjected to such artificial means to sustain what the Atheistic world deems to be "life".

The article that CovenantInBlood linked to in his first post provides far too little information about this woman's actual state. The only thing that I could ascertain is that this has been a situation that has been going on for over 10 years. And then there was this quote by the reporter, which no doubt he got from the woman's parents:

Quote
Michael Schiavo and his wife's parents have been battling since 1994 over whether Terri Schiavo, 41, should be kept alive. Her parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, say their daughter is able to communicate and may improve with therapy.

Now IF that is true, that she is able to communicate, aside from the speculation of the possibility of improvement through therapy, then she is definitely not brain dead.

So, coming full circle, my question would have to be, What is the desire of the woman herself in regard to being "kept alive" via life support? But again, if she is indeed able to communicate, then I don't consider her condition as one that is relevant to the question.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: Pilgrim] #22545
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:15 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline OP
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Virginia
Pilgrim,

Mrs. Schiavo is not on "life support," much less "full life support." She breathes on her own and digests her own food, and she responds to stimuli in the environment around her. (Her parents' website, http://www.terrisfight.org/, has some videos of her that incontrovertibly show that she is at least somewhat aware of her surroundings.) She is currently being fed through a feeding tube, however, it is disputed whether such is even necessary, but her husband (who currently lives with his girlfriend by whom he has two children) has refused to allow her to be spoonfed or given any therapy. The case has centered around his attempts to have feeding stopped altogether, and her parents' attempts to prevent him from doing so. She left no living will, and the judge in the case accepted the hearsay testimony of Mr. Schiavo and his brother and sister-in-law that Terri would want to die in such a situation. However, this was only brought to light after Mr. Schiavo was rewarded with a large sum of money to cover the costs of Terri's ongoing care. Most of that money has since been spent on legal fees attempting to end care.

Last edited by CovenantInBlood; Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:18 PM.

Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22546
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:15 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:15 PM

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Wait. if she can get food and water herself, and communicate her wishes, why are the courts deciding for her?


God bless,

william

Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: D.J.] #22547
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:18 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:18 PM

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Are you claiming the court is actively ending to end this persons life? Or are you actually saying that one of the consequences of the courts decision is that her life may end?


God bless,

william

Re: Terri Schiavo Case #22548
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:44 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline OP
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Quote
averagefellar said:
Wait. if she can get food and water herself, and communicate her wishes, why are the courts deciding for her?


She can't get food and water herself. She's disabled as a result of the brain damage she's suffered. She can digest it, but she needs to be fed. And I don't know anything about her communicating her wishes as to this situation. Her husband wants to end her being fed, and the courts so far have ruled pretty consistently in his favor.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22549
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:48 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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NH, USA
I believe if you read what I actually wrote, I agree that the issue of being taken off "life-support" is a moot issue in this case, since there appeared to be, albeit scant information in that one initial article that said the woman does communicate, which alone is sufficient to show that her ex-husband's attempts to deny her sustenance is unethical and contrary to what we as Christians hold to be true. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My intention was simply to affirm to averagefellar that in situations where one is indeed on full life-support, it should be stopped IF it was the person's own desire beforehand that they not be put on full life-support. I agree with averagefellar that the courts and/or bureacrats, nor even my family have no business in determining my end in this specific situation when my clear wishes have been previously made known.

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Terri Schiavo Case [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22550
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:58 PM
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:58 PM

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HIS favor? Where's her voice?


God bless,

william

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