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#25018 Thu May 26, 2005 2:11 AM
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Persnickety Presbyterian
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Ted said:

I pray, Kyle, that your list was not intended to be a complete list of the tithes commanded in Scripture. There are almost too many to list. Some of the important ones you missed include:

Genesis 14

Genesis 28

Leviticus 27

and

2 Chronicles 31

Abram's tithe to Melchizedek in Gen. 14 is neither commanded of Abram nor of all Israel. No go!

Jacob's tithe in Gen. 28 is not commanded by God to Jacob, neither is it commanded of all Israel. No go!

As for Lev. 27 and II Chron. 31, what about these tithe is any different from the tithe to the Levites in Num. 18:21?
It's the same tithe.

Quote
And it is silly to suggest that the tithes you list in Deuteronomy are invalid simply because "we do not travel to Jerusalem once a year (imagine paying the tithe solely to feast!) and we do not live in towns in ancient Israel that are made up entirely of members of the church."

Why so silly? These were obviously tied to a particular place and time. Do you take a tenth part of your income every year and use it in one enormous feast in celebration in some holy city? No? Do you set aside a tenth part of your income every three years and give it to your city for the purpose of supporting the Levites and the poor? No? Could it be that these were part of the ceremonial and civil law of ancient Israel to which Christians are not obligated?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#25019 Thu May 26, 2005 2:16 AM
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One more piece, from another perspective, etc.

Ted, now you're just spamming. Instead of answering my questions in a straightforward manner, you seem rather to be assuming that I'm just unwilling to give over a tenth part of my income. Yes, that MUST be why I say that the tithe is not a Christian mandate! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" /> Give me a break!

#25020 Thu May 26, 2005 2:19 AM
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And, once again, where do you get off saying that tithing is "ceremonial?"

Considering that the tithe was in large part used to support the priestly class and sacrificial system, well, it seems only natural to say that it was CEREMONIAL.

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CovenantInBlood said:
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One more piece, from another perspective, etc.

Ted, now you're just spamming. Instead of answering my questions in a straightforward manner, you seem rather to be assuming that I'm just unwilling to give over a tenth part of my income. Yes, that MUST be why I say that the tithe is not a Christian mandate! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" /> Give me a break!

There are NO "Christian mandates," my brother. Do I need to "spam" my prior post on the differences between "justification" and "sanctification?" Do we need to go over the differences between "Grace" and "Law?"

My point, my brother in Christ, is to share some sound Biblical teaching with the readers of this thread.

IF you are posting here to show off how great your knowledge is, that is "pride." Your recent posts in this thread seem to suggest that you know WAY more about this topic than you previously let on. IF that is the case, why ask "Could you deal with the questions I brought up regarding the continuity of the tithe?"

With Christ's love,
Ted

#25022 Thu May 26, 2005 2:39 AM
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There are NO "Christian mandates," my brother.

Oh gosh! Ted, are you as a Christian commanded to be baptized? To partake of the Lord's Supper? To abstain from sexual immorality? Etc., etc., etc. You've continually evaded the point and made the issue much more complicated than it was initially presented to you.

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Your recent posts in this thread seem to suggest that you know WAY more about this topic than you previously let on.

What on earth are you talking about?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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CovenantInBlood said:
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And, once again, where do you get off saying that tithing is "ceremonial?"

Considering that the tithe was in large part used to support the priestly class and sacrificial system, well, it seems only natural to say that it was CEREMONIAL.

Logical? Perhaps. But . . . to what you write, I would say, "where's THAT in the Bible?"

I say it gets back to the concept of "Christian liberty."

IF a professed follower of Christ is not going to tithe, at a minimum, they are abusing their liberty in Christ and risking Matthew 25:14-46. http://www.losbanospca.com/Stewardship.mp3

With Christ's love,
Ted

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You've continually evaded the point and made the issue much more complicated than it was initially presented to you.

It IS, my brother.

#25025 Thu May 26, 2005 2:52 AM
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Ted said:
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CovenantInBlood said:
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And, once again, where do you get off saying that tithing is "ceremonial?"

Considering that the tithe was in large part used to support the priestly class and sacrificial system, well, it seems only natural to say that it was CEREMONIAL.

Logical? Perhaps. But . . . to what you write, I would say, "where's THAT in the Bible?"

I say it gets back to the concept of "Christian liberty."

IF a professed follower of Christ is not going to tithe, at a minimum, they are abusing their liberty in Christ and risking Matthew 25:14-46. http://www.losbanospca.com/Stewardship.mp3

With Christ's love,
Ted

All right, Ted, WHICH TITHE? The tithe that is the inheritance of the Levites, presented once a year? The tithe that is for the festival in Jerusalem, spent on whatever your heart desires, also presented once a year? Or the tithe that is given to the town you live in for the Levites and poor living there, presented once every three years? Which of these tithes is it? Is it all of these tithes? None of these tithes? Do I still have to be sure never to trim the hair on the sides of my head? Should I be sure to let my beard grow out long? Do I, as a professing Christian, abuse my freedom by eating pork?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Oh gosh! Ted, are you as a Christian commanded to be baptized? To partake of the Lord's Supper? To abstain from sexual immorality? Etc., etc., etc.

IF we are talking "justification," none of those "commandments" apply.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. - Romans 3:23-25 ESV

#25027 Thu May 26, 2005 2:58 AM
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Ted said:
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You've continually evaded the point and made the issue much more complicated than it was initially presented to you.

It IS, my brother.

No, Ted, it isn't. The question was whether we are commanded, as Christians, to give a tenth part our income to the church. "Yes" or "no" suffice as basic answers. From there you could make your scriptural argument.

INSTEAD, you have avoided saying yes or no, and have treated the tithe as something which is obligatory upon Christians but not mandated. You have furthermore failed to directly engage scriptural arguments that show that the tithe is NOT a mandate for Christians, preferring instead to cite Jesus' teachings about how should be willing to give all for Him.

It's like asking, "Are Christians mandated to remain celibate?" and being answered with Jesus' words about those who become eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#25028 Thu May 26, 2005 3:00 AM
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Ted said:
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Oh gosh! Ted, are you as a Christian commanded to be baptized? To partake of the Lord's Supper? To abstain from sexual immorality? Etc., etc., etc.

IF we are talking "justification," none of those "commandments" apply.

We AREN'T talking justification, Ted, and I already made that perfectly clear to you in a previous response. Justification is NOT under dispute.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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CovenantInBlood said:
All right, Ted, WHICH TITHE? The tithe that is the inheritance of the Levites, presented once a year? The tithe that is for the festival in Jerusalem, spent on whatever your heart desires, also presented once a year? Or the tithe that is given to the town you live in for the Levites and poor living there, presented once every three years? Which of these tithes is it? Is it all of these tithes? None of these tithes? Do I still have to be sure never to trim the hair on the sides of my head? Should I be sure to let my beard grow out long? Do I, as a professing Christian, abuse my freedom by eating pork?

You keep missing the point, my brother.

Jesus would THUNDER at you, [color:"FF0000"]"Where's your HEART, Kyle?!?!?!?[/color]

19"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[e] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. - Matthew 6:19-21

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Kyle wrote:
No, Ted, it isn't. The question was whether we are commanded, as Christians, to give a tenth part our income to the church. "Yes" or "no" suffice as basic answers. From there you could make your scriptural argument.

I wrote, in my very first post,
Quote
I would respectfully submit that the question you ask doesn't get to the heart of what the Bible teaches. A simple answer would be, "No, we are required to give everything we have, but only after we've given our hearts to God."

In a subsequent post, I wrote:
Quote
The original question, "Are Christians mandated to tithe? That is to give a tenth of their goods to the church?" is, in regard to justification, a simple "no." There is NOTHING we can do to be justified before God (short of keeping ALL the Law -- which we know is impossible!).

So, it would appear, that the "no" has been plainly stated.

Let's look at it from a different angle, my brother. Which of the "fruits of the Spirit" have you been displaying to me in the process of our "discussion?"

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. - Galatians 5:22-24 ESV

Quote
I'm glad you can quote the Bible, Ted. But going by that I'd have to assume you are a Judaizer and therefore a heretic. Why don't you answer my questions? Are we obligated to obey the ceremonial and civil ordinances of the Mosaic law?

--------------------
By His Grace,
Kyle

Respectfully submitted with the best interests of your soul,
Ted

#25031 Thu May 26, 2005 11:14 AM
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Ted,

I have appreciated your comments and the articles you have referenced in this discussion. I think you have attempted to get at the heart of what the Bible teaches on this topic.

Unfortunately by reading some of the responses in this thread not everyone understands nor agrees with your position. IMHO the bottom line is that we are not our own but bought with the precious blood of Jesus. Everything we have belongs to God. We came into this world without any possessions and we will surely depart without any. So it comes down to a matter of stewardship.

No one can tell another person what to give. Because after all the act of giving is not a legal matter, it’s a matter of the heart.

"So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudingly or of necessity; for the Lord loves a cheerful giver." (II Cor. 9:7)


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Wes #25032 Thu May 26, 2005 12:41 PM
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Wes said:
Ted,

I have appreciated your comments and the articles you have referenced in this discussion. I think you have attempted to get at the heart of what the Bible teaches on this topic.

Thank you, Wes. Praise the LORD!

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Unfortunately by reading some of the responses in this thread not everyone understands nor agrees with your position.

Oh, I pray that I have NOT failed to be faithful to God's most precious and HOLY Word in my posts. Please forgive me if I have.

Quote
IMHO the bottom line is that we are not our own but bought with the precious blood of Jesus. Everything we have belongs to God. We came into this world without any possessions and we will surely depart without any. So it comes down to a matter of stewardship.

No one can tell another person what to give. Because after all the act of giving is not a legal matter, it’s a matter of the heart.

"So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudingly or of necessity; for the Lord loves a cheerful giver." (II Cor. 9:7)

Amen and amen. No truer words have been written in this regard.

My point that I have tragically and, perhaps, sinfully, failed to get across is that this particular topic -- stewardship -- is CRITICAL to our faith.

Please join with me in prayerfully listening to some Godly wisdom on this topic -- Pastor Reddit Andrews III on the topic of "Stewardship: Our Task":

http://www.losbanospca.com/Stewardship.mp3

OR

http://www.soaringoaks.com/sermons/2004Sermon021504.mp3

With Christ's great love,
Ted

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