The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Since we're talking about money

Jacob's Dream

20Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear,

21and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God.

22"This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."

From Genesis 28 (New American Standard Bible)

God's Promise to Abram

17Then after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley).
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.

19He blessed him and said,
"Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand."
He gave him a tenth of all.

From Genesis 14 (New American Standard Bible)

Melchizedek's Priesthood Like Christ's

1For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.

3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

4Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils.

5And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham.

6But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises.

7But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater.

8In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on.

9And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,

10for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

11Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

12For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

13For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

15And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek,

16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.

17For it is attested of Him,
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness

19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

20And inasmuch as it was not without an oath

21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,

24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Hebrews 7 (New American Standard Bible)

God Gives Most

6Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

7Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;

9as it is written,
"HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR,
HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ENDURES FOREVER."

10Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;

11you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.

12For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.

13Because of the proof given by this ministry, they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,

14while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.

15Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

2 Corinthians 9 (New American Standard Bible)

I believe that if a church demands that each member gives 10% that this might err on the side of legalism. It also isn't what the church in my opinion should be doing.

Boanerges said:
Are Christians mandated to tithe? That is to give a tenth of their goods to the church?

Giving: Giving is blessed.

a) Matthew 23:23
i) The Pharisees gave precisely the correct amount – a tithe of even their mint leaves.
ii) But because they gave with the wrong heart attitude, the Lord rebuked them.

b) 1Corinthians 13:3
i) Giving without a heart of love is no value to the giver.

c) 2Corinthians 9:7
i) Do not give grudgingly or under compulsion but rather give cheerfully.
ii) The proper attitude is the key issue in the area of giving.
iii) The only way to give out of a heart of love is to consciously give each gift to Jesus Christ Himself as an act of worship.

d) Acts 20:23
i) In the Lord’s economic system it is more blessed to give than to receive. Most people believe the opposite.

e) Proverbs 11:24-25
i) There is a material increase – in the Lord’s time and way – to the giver.

f) Matthew 6:20
i) We can lay up treasures in heaven that we will be able to enjoy through out all eternity.

g) Luke 12:34
i) The heart of the giver is drawn to Christ as treasures are given to Him.

h) 1Timothy 6:18-19
i) We can store treasures in heaven and “take hold of that which is life indeed.”

i) Malachi 3:8-10
i) The tithe was required under the law, and it was considered robbing God not to give these required gifts.

j) 2Corinthians 8:1-5
i) There are three (perhaps more) principles from this passage that should influence how much you give:
(1) They first gave themselves to the Lord, asking Him to direct their giving. In the same way we need to submit ourselves to the Lord when determining how much to give.
(2) They were so yielded to the Lord that despite difficult circumstances they begged to give.
(3) They experienced tremendous joy as a result of their sacrificial giving.

k) Numbers 18:8-10,24
i) Godly people have always been required to participate in the maintenance of the ministry.
ii) The Old Testament believer was required to care for the place of worship and the Levites who served in the ministry.

l) Galatians 6:6
i) Those who are taught the Scriptures should financially support their teachers.

m) 1Timothy 5:17-18
i) God’s New Testament instrument in the church, and we are to adequately support those who serve as pastors and teachers.

n) Isaiah 58:6-11
i) When we give to the poor, the Lord will protect us, answer our prayer, and bless us with his joy.

o) Ezekiel 16:49
i) The primary sins of Sodom were pride and not caring for the poor, even though they had an abundance of material goods.

p) Matthew 25:35-45
i) Jesus identifies personally with the poor.
ii) When we give to the poor, we are giving to Christ Himself.
iii) When we do not give to the poor, we are not giving to Christ, and He is left hungry and naked.

q) Galatians 2:9-10
i) The disciples also had a deep concern for the poor.
ii) After Paul’s confirmation to minister to the Gentiles, the only counsel the disciples gave him was not to forget the poor.
iii) Think of the MANY issues they could have discussed, yet they only asked Paul to remember the poor.

Hi, Boanerges. Happy Thursday to you!

I would respectfully submit that the question you ask doesn't get to the heart of what the Bible teaches. A simple answer would be, "No, we are required to give everything we have, but only after we've given our hearts to God."

Here's an outline of the "giving" section from a class I've been involved with on the larger subject of "stewardship."

If I say Christians lets assume I'm talking about bible believing individuals that have given their hearts to God.

If I say Tithe lets assume that I am talking about at the minimum 10% of the money/goods that a person has.

If I say mandated I mean required as a rule.

Now let's try this again, are Christians mandated to tithe?

Are their hearts something that God would want?

Is the minimum 10% money/goods something that God would want?

By mandated rule, do you mean a law that condemns the disobedient or a guide for Christians who have been liberated from the law?

Do mandated tithes please God? Or, are they filthy rags of our own righteousness?

Are their hearts something that God would want?
Speratus are you totally unaware of contemporary Christian culture references or are you just being tiresome? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />

Is the minimum 10% money/goods something that God would want?
These verses would indicate so: Ge 14:20; Le 27:30-32; Nu 18:21,24,26,28; De 12:6,11,17; 14:23,28; 26:12; 2Ch 31:5-6,12; Ne 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5,12; Eze 45:11,14; Am 4:4; Mal 3:8,10

Do mandated tithes please God? Or, are they filthy rags of our own righteousness?
I don't know Speratus that's why I asked the question.

Tell me does the Lutheran Church still give its members tithe/offering envelopes or is that a thing of the past too?

Boanerges said:

Thanks, I think, there Ted however I don't see the answer to the question per se. Let's get some assumptions down right away.

If I say Christians lets assume I'm talking about bible believing individuals that have given their hearts to God.

If I say Tithe lets assume that I am talking about at the minimum 10% of the money/goods that a person has.

If I say mandated I mean required as a rule.

Now let's try this again, are Christians mandated to tithe?

I'm totally aware a contemporary Christian culture that believes that God is highly pleased with the gift of our corrupt hearts. A fine gift for our Lord!

Do you have any NT references? Are we mandated to support a Levitical priesthood as well?

Hebrews 7:6-9 but he whose genealogy is not counted from them has taken tithes of Abraham, and has blessed him who has the promises. But without any dispute the less is blessed by the better. Here people who die receive tithes, but there one receives tithes of whom it is testified that he lives. So to say, through Abraham even Levi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes,emphasis mine

The law of mandated tithes only condemns us. The only thing we can truly give God is our sins.

I have never been associated with a Lutheran church that required tithing. The only justification I can think of for the optional offering envelopes is that documentation is required by the IRS. Even that is questionable. If we are rewarded by the government for our giving, what reward have we of the Father? And what about our fellow church members who do the accounting of our contributions? What sort of reward are we expecting from them? As much as possible, we should not let our left hand know what our right hand does.

Jesus answer? ". . . sell all that you have and give to the poor . . . " (with emphasis added).

doulos said:
We give him the top piece from gross income before we pay any bills. There is always enough. Why does it have to be so hard?