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Kathy #26098 Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:47 AM
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And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, [2] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, [3] with whom I am well pleased.”

Pilgrim #26099 Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:53 AM
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Pilgrim,

The reason I hadn’t asked for verses is that I have read, and seen so many verses already on the topic. And I think I am not making my point. I do appreciate your response and patience. Thank you for providing the verses. Honestly... I am and have been grueling over this... I am still considering and studying, etc. Partly, it is because there are Christians I know, and respect who brought it up... bringing to light gross misinterpretations, etc. Christians who believe the same thing I believe, and the same thing you believe. I’m not wishy-washy and any belief/doctrine to the wind. I take the Word and the Christian faith seriously. So again... I’m still churning with this. I do have a problem with authority... I can’t help it... which authority? I’m not happy with the current authority... including the Presbyterian church... and that may be the real issue.

You asked: If Jesus Christ was not GOD incarnate, then why would God the Father command the angels to worship Him? But the text in Heb 1:8 clearly shows that God calls Jesus Christ God!

I never said that Jesus Christ is not GOD. He is God. He is the Alpha and the Omega. That is what I believe.

What I meant: The Word doesn’t make this statement:
“God is one, but three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit” That’s man’s extrapolation. And I count three Gods (but one.)


Jesus IS the Alpha and the Omega

To some, this statement is diminished... and Jesus is seen as separate from the Father and less than the Father. He’s not separate, and he’s not less... He’s God!

I believe in the inspired Word... that Jesus Christ IS the Word Incarnate. And, I believe that we view the God-head essentially the same way; which is why I said that many (not all) non-Trinitarians and Trinitarians believe the same thing. (I’m not JW or any other sect, title, etc.)

Why can’t I stick with the Word? You may think that is arrogant or disrespectful ? of me... Why do I need to submit to any creed other than Jesus Christ when it comes to understanding his Word? It’s salvation. These creeds weren’t accepted and revised until the 4th century... with powerful religious authority that decreed who was and wasn’t able to attain salvation. Which is God’s decision. And that power which isn’t man’s has been misused. So, I do question intent. The Holy Spirit has been around longer than that.


I disagree that the Word of God needs the additional explanation
"I and my Father are ONE" (John 10:30).

Thank you for your patience and giving me what you have to consider... and I’m still considering.

-Kathy

Paul_S #26100 Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:47 PM
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Paul said:
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Do you realize that you yourself have engaged in the very practice you decry--that of using a "non-biblical word" to summarize biblical truth--here already? You wrote several diatribes on the "Noahide Laws", although those words never appear in the Bible! And even more curiously, in the above quote, you refer to "the bible". Can you please show me where those very words occur, in your Bible?

Paul,

A limited answer to your question: No, they are not in the Bible. And that is what I stated. They are found in the Talmud, and are justified by some Christians and Messianics (which was why I posted) which they cite evidence for in Acts 15 (Jerusalem Council.) They believe the Church has completely misunderstood and strayed, by not observing these ‘OT Laws’. They cite the biblical term ‘God fearers’ and say these are the gentiles who observed the Jewish faith, referring to these as following the covenant of Noah.

Your question re: the word ‘the bible’... what do you want me to say to that? So, as not to cloud up this highway, I explained to the best of my ability, why I'm struggling with what is known as the Trinity doctrine.

-Kathy

Kathy #26101 Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:21 PM
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Kathy,
Quote
what do you want me to say to that?

Here's the point. You agree that the term "the bible" doesn't actually occur within the 66 books of the Old and New testament, right? So when you state:
Quote
I disagree in adding the word ‘trinity’ into the mix, because it is not in the bible.
...
Trinity: Not in the Bible
I am merely pointing out that since you have also made use of words (as "the bible") which are not themselves in "the bible", you should not object to the use of a similarly technical, shorthand term ("Trinity") to represent a set of doctrinal statements.

I know you have acknowledged that the "interpretation" of the term is more important, and am suggesting that your understanding of the interpretation--that is, the truth or falsity of the meaning invested in the term compared to the whole counsel of God--is the only issue to be considering, not the usage of the word itself.


In Christ,
Paul S
Kathy #26102 Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:30 PM
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Kathy

You said:
Quote
I disagree that the Word of God needs the additional explanation
"I and my Father are ONE" (John 10:30).

Like all Scripture, when we read a verse or a passage, it needs to be interpreted in light of context and the rest of Scripture.
This is quite obvious when you think about all the denominations and cults in the world today.
For instance if you ask a JW what John 10:30 means you are going to get a different interpretation than you would by the average person on this board.
In the case of John 10:30, it should be quite obvious that the context is Christ's Deity. For in the very next verse we see that the Jews knew full well what Jesus was saying, when they took up stones in order to stone Him.

The word "Trinity" was made to show a biblical concept. We don't necessarily need to use the word "Trinity" itself, but we do need to believe in the Trinity. This is not an option.
I will say something I said earlier in a reply to you. The Trinity is NOT a doctrine of men, it is very biblical.
What you see as “additional explanation” is in actuality just interpretation to try to make it clear what the Word of God taught on the subject.
Whether you know it or not, you do this every time you read the Bible.

Tom

Kathy #26103 Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:54 PM
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Quote
Kathy said:
What I meant: The Word doesn’t make this statement:
“God is one, but three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit” That’s man’s extrapolation. And I count three Gods (but one.)
There cannot be "three Gods (but one)", as for no other reason than it violates the most basic law of "non-contradiction", i.e., something cannot be and not be at the same time. Secondly, the Scripture says emphatically that there is but ONE God. (cf. Mal 2:10; Mk 12:32; 1Tim 2:5; Jam 2:19). AND... at the same time, the Scripture says that the ONE God consists of the Father, Who is God and the Son, Who is God and the Holy Spirit, Who also is God, thus the three persons ARE the ONE God, each being God. (cf. my biblical proofs in my last reply and 1Cor 8:6) All three persons are eternally existent and simultaneously existent as opposed to what many of the heresies teach, e.g., "Modalistic Monarchianism", which teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are but three "modes" of manifestation successively assumed by the Godhead. But this is easily shown to be gross error from the simple fact that a combination of the three Persons were manifested all at the same point in time or Who are said to function independently, e.g., at the Lord Christ's incarnation (Lk 1:35), at Christ's baptism. (Matt 3:16, 17;), Christ's resurrection: 1) God raises Jesus from the dead, 1Thess 1:10; 2) The Father raises Jesus from the dead, Acts 3:26; 3) Jesus raises Himself from the dead, Jh 2:19-21; and the Holy Spirit raises Jesus from the dead, 1Thess 1:10. The Son (Word) was both with God and was God; this showing that the Son is a separate person Who is also one of the members of the ONE God.

Quote
You then asked:
Why can’t I stick with the Word? You may think that is arrogant or disrespectful ? of me... Why do I need to submit to any creed other than Jesus Christ when it comes to understanding his Word? It’s salvation. These creeds weren’t accepted and revised until the 4th century... with powerful religious authority that decreed who was and wasn’t able to attain salvation. Which is God’s decision. And that power which isn’t man’s has been misused. So, I do question intent. The Holy Spirit has been around longer than that.
It is not arrogance to "stick with the Word" but it is rather arrogant to think that you can stand above and/or apart from every other Christian and the Church to whom the Holy Spirit was given for the purpose of knowing all truth. Those who God has called by His Spirit are not only called to an individual faith in the Lord Christ unto salvation, but they are also adopted to be part of the family of God as "sons". (Rom 8:14; 2Cor 6:18; Gal 4:5; Heb 12:22) Within that family, the Church, God the Spirit has discriminately given gifts for the benefit of the whole; one being that of teacher. (Eph 4:11-14; 1Cor 12:4ff) A rejection of God's appointed means of teaching is what Paul warned about. (1Tim 4:3) And it is also true that there was, is and will be false teachers who are called heretics. (1Cor 11:19; 2Pet 2:1) Thus is imperative that every teaching be scrutinized against the Scriptures. (1Jh 4:1)


Quote
You stated:
I disagree that the Word of God needs the additional explanation
"I and my Father are ONE" (John 10:30).
Pray tell, how is one to understand what ANYTHING read in the Bible means if it is not explained? To simply quote a text without anything more is meaningless. In regard to Jh 10:30, are you saying that the text has no need of explanation? Does not the CONTEXT determine its true meaning along with considerations of its historical setting and grammar? If you even attempt to answer a question in regard to anything in the Bible, either to others or even yourself, you are forced to give a meaning, i.e., your understanding of the text. This is inescapable. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Consider these things well. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Tom #26104 Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:28 PM
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Tom,

I'm thinking... and considering MUCH of late. Such a discussion (and I started it) is circular... and sorry for for hauling in the merry-go-round.

Ultimately, I believe in faith, that the way anyone is going to understand 'Who God is' is by the Holy Spirit... for as much as we try to explain.

The way anyone is going to understand the statement "For it is by Grace through Faith" is by Grace. Because, for as much as I heard that verse... It wasn't until I HEARD it... By Grace.

Someday down the road, will a religious authority submit a statement or bill called 'Trinity' for the sake of unity? And if they do, what else by their actions and beliefs must I agree with, that is implied. This is hypothetical. But that is how a lot of things work.

The same religious authority that says a lot of 'right' things... is silent on so many other things. And I have to look at that. Meanwhile, there are some who are having a hey-day with a very skewed version of the Trinity (I don't mean here) and are targeting those who disagree... and I can't help but look at that.

Who is saying what. And who isn't seeing what, and what is not being said. And I have to wonder why that is. If that is vague, and it is... It is deliberate, because it needs to be... and I have to look at that, too.

Kathy #26105 Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:26 PM
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Kathy,

I've been reading this thread and I am somewhat confused by your posts, as I am sure others are. One question now sticks out in my mind for you though:

What is your ultimate authority?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
MarieP #26106 Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:10 PM
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SemperReformanda,

(easy names you pick)

My Ultimate authority is Jesus Christ.

-Kathy

Pilgrim #26107 Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:25 PM
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Pilgrim,

You said, There cannot be "three Gods (but one)", -- I AGREE with you.

Pilgrim said:
Quote
It is not arrogance to "stick with the Word" but it is rather arrogant to think that you can stand above and/or apart from every other Christian and the Church to whom the Holy Spirit was given for the purpose of knowing all truth. Those who God has called by His Spirit are not only called to an individual faith in the Lord Christ unto salvation, but they are also adopted to be part of the family of God as "sons". (Rom 8:14; 2Cor 6:18; Gal 4:5; Heb 12:22) Within that family, the Church, God the Spirit has discriminately given gifts for the benefit of the whole; one being that of teacher. (Eph 4:11-14; 1Cor 12:4ff) A rejection of God's appointed means of teaching is what Paul warned about. (1Tim 4:3) And it is also true that there was, is and will be false teachers who are called heretics. (1Cor 11:19; 2Pet 2:1) Thus is imperative that every teaching be scrutinized against the Scriptures. (1Jh 4:1)

Here is where I’m at. I’m looking for the Church... God’s appointed. I’m upset. I’m finding people who are walking out and fellowshipping with each other.... and so far, I am learning a lot from them. I’m not sure if this is yet the “come out of her my people.” But I am finding a lot of heresy and disappointment. I see things very different than many here concerning eschatological events. I believe it is very skewed, everywhere -- I cannot say more. And I won’t. But, That’s a big one. The bible says that the Lord would send a delusion so strong to deceive, if possible, the elect. I have to wonder, in my own conviction, faith and understanding, if on a spiritual level... it isn’t a case of spiritual warfare vs. theological debate and head knowledge. “It’s not in my rule book from the elders” That is not meant as insulting... it is an honest statement. I certainly do not hold degrees... nor am I claiming to stand above and distinct from the body of Christ. I don’t want to be distinct... but I am feeling estranged... and I don’t want to be that, either.

Getting back to our need to explain... You are right. I don’t want to end this as silly as Gilda Radner saying ‘nevermind.’ I said what I did... thinking the topic outloud... here. In retrospect? I’m still considering a lot of what you wrote, as well as others, here and elsewhere. On a side note, I read your article ‘By Grace Alone’ – and I appreciated the insights that you conveyed very much.

-Kathy

Kathy #26108 Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:52 PM
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Kathy

I don't mean to rush you, but I would ask that if you are going to respond to our replies to you that you would answer directly to what we have to say, with out being vague.

Tom

Kathy #26109 Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:14 PM
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Kathy,

When you say:
Quote
I’m finding people who are walking out and fellowshipping with each other
....
I’m not sure if this is yet the “come out of her my people.” But I am finding a lot of heresy and disappointment.
, your language sounds very much like that of Harold Camping. Has he, or people with a similar "it's time to leave the church" message, been influential upon you and those you are fellowshipping with?

Knowing the answer to that question might make it easier for some of us to understand your concerns about basic Christian doctrine.


In Christ,
Paul S
Kathy #26110 Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:57 PM
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And how/where does Christ speak to you infallibly?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Kathy #26111 Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:37 AM
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Kathy,

Here are a few excerpts from a recent article by one of my elders, which highlight the dangers of an unbiblical view of Father, Son and Holy Spirit:
Quote
[the doctrine of the Trinity] is essential to the Gospel. How so?

In the monotheism of Judaism and Islam there is the denial of original sin, hence there is no need for a Savior to atone for one's sins. To accept the Trinity one would have to face the doctrine of the Incarnation and ultimately the Gospel.

I like the words found in an old Puritan prayer, "Three in one, one in three, God of my salvation, Heavenly Father, blessed Son, eternal Spirit, I adore thee as one Being, one Essence, one God in three distinct Persons, for bringing sinners to thy knowledge and to thy kingdom. O Father, thou has loved me and sent Jesus to redeem me; O Jesus, thou has loved me and assumed my nature, shed thine own blood to wash away my sins, wrought righteousness to cover my unworthiness; O Holy Spirit, thou hast loved me and entered my heart, implanted there eternal life, revealed to me the glories of Jesus."

Is it any wonder, then, that the Muslim man with whom I have an ongoing dialogue, finds the designation for Jesus as the Son of God offensive? Granted, in his mind it is an affront to his monotheism. He tells me that he is willing to speak of Jesus as the "soul of God" but not the Son of God(?). Satan will do everything he can to keep a person from the Trinity.

Or take the new-age guru whom I met, and with whom I continue to have opportunities to speak about the Lord. In good post modern fashion, he's happy to incorporate elements of Christianity, even the second coming of Christ, into his scheme of things. Yeah, he actually said that it would be good if there was a second coming of Christ! But that there is one God who rules over all? Well now, that's preposterous. When I told him about Christ who came into the world to save sinners, he gave me a condescending smile.

Here in The Bronx we have also encountered "modalists." These are people who believe that the Trinity is three different forms by which God manifests himself. How does that affect the Gospel? It destroys it. Under the modalist view, either God in His essential nature died (a scary, not to mention, heretical proposition!) or, Christ (who is, according to the modalist view, the same as the Father and the Spirit) did not die a real death for sinners. The Gospel has to be altered if the Trinity is nothing more than three different costumes that God wears.

To be sure, it is not only the Trinity but also the Incarnation that safeguards the fact that Christ, with respect to His humanity, died a real death for sinners. The eternal Logos did not--could not--die. The Incarnation presupposes the Trinity, which, in turn, illustrates how foundational is the doctrine of the Trinity.

...

It is very important that we understand that the members of the Trinity work in complete harmony with one another. ... It is an ancient, and a modern, not to mention, a very false, idea that "the Old Testament is the age of the Father, the New Testament, the age of the Son, and the present, the age of the Holy Spirit." That is the stuff of novelty ("God is doing a new thing today!"). It is fertile ground for the seeds of weird teachings and practices. I'm describing our current age.

... without a Trinitarian orientation in preaching the Gospel and in doing ministry, we are going to end up conveying the impression that the members of the Trinity operate in the world independently of one another.

This must not be. From creation to consummation, it is the Father's plan, the Son's work and the Spirit's application. They function in complete harmony in their respective offices. The work of the Spirit is to exalt the risen Christ who came to do the will of the Father. God is one.


In Christ,
Paul S
Paul_S #26112 Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:28 PM
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Paul,

I’m not aware of Harold Camping. I’m considering the ‘come out of her my people’ because, I have to take into account what is NOT being said as a spiritual indicator. And this has to do with my unpopular eschatological view surrounding events, which I am convicted are wrapped up in the bigger picture and the smaller picture. No, this isn’t a Salvation/Faith/Grace topic, but it becomes one. If Church leadership isn’t seeing the bigger picture... it tells me they are uninspired or for some reason resistant... or duped. In which case, I won’t attend. I believe many churches are supporting the agenda of the anti-Christ. (that is my opinion and conviction.) This is where I’m at. It’s not a question, because our vantage point is so different on this one; but I hope it clarifies the ‘come out of her my people’ statement.

I see you posted another post under the Trinity topic. I'm behind in my response. As I'm really having difficulty (my own) expressing myself on this.

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