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Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: Link] #28707
Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:02 AM
Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:02 AM
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NH, USA
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Quote
Link said:
In the Bible, the covenant is usually between the bride's father and the groom (or groom's father on behalf of the groom, perhaps, in the case of Samson.)

And what bearing does that have outside theocratic Israel and its unique civil laws and/or customs upon new covenant believers today? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

In 1Cor 7:9 and 36, Paul is addressing individual men and women in regard to their entering into marriage, enjoining them to do so personally. If there was any place where O.T. Israelic marriage practices might be expected to be mentioned, it would have been there. Yet, we see nothing mentioned. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> Nor is there any other place in the entire N.T. where the male head of a household is instructed to contract a marriage for his children.

In His grace,


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Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: Pilgrim] #28708
Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:47 AM
Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:47 AM

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Pilgrim said:
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speratus said:
The Christian couple delights in the moral law of God. They will not dishonor their parents by becoming engaged without permission. They will not cause offense to the Christian community by failing to post their bans well in advance of the wedding. Although they are husband and wife in the sight of God, they will not commit adultery by coming together as one flesh before their betrothal contract is publicly fulfilled.

And where, pray tell, is this to be found in God's inspired Word? I did find mention of such things however, e.g., "posting of bans", "betrothal contracts", etc., in one particular book I have on my shelf which is titled, "The Devised Standard Version". Would that be your source? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


Not the Deformed Standard Version but the moral law of God as revealed in the Ten Commandments. Your modernist view runs counter to the historic practice of Reformation churches. The posting of banns was included in the first prayer book of the Anglican Church.

Quote
1549 Book of Common Prayer
THE FORME OF SOLEMNIZACION OF MATRIMONIE.

¶ First the bannes must be asked three several Soondayes or holye dayes. in the service tyme, the people beeyng presente, after the accustomed maner.

And if the persones that woulde bee maried dwel in divers parishes, the bannes muste bee asked in bothe parishes, and the Curate of thone [the one] parish shall not solemnize matrimonie betwixt them, withoute a certificate of the bannes beeyng thrise asked from the Curate of thother parishe.


The betrothal contract is referenced in your very own confession.

Quote
Westminster Confession of Faith
Adultery or fornication committed after a contract, being detected before marriage, gives just occasion to the innocent party to dissolve that contract.


Do you agree or disagree with Westminster? Or, is it simply obsolete? A remnant of an orthodox past when Christian betrothal actually meant a lifelong commitment?

Re: The modern wedding ceremony... #28709
Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:29 PM
Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:29 PM
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speratus said:

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Pilgrim said:
And where, pray tell, is this to be found in God's inspired Word? I did find mention of such things however, e.g., "posting of bans", "betrothal contracts", etc., in one particular book I have on my shelf which is titled, "The Devised Standard Version". Would that be your source?


Not the Deformed Standard Version but the moral law of God as revealed in the Ten Commandments. Your modernist view runs counter to the historic practice of Reformation churches. The posting of banns was included in the first prayer book of the Anglican Church.

The Ten Commandments you say? So, which commandment applies to this issue and teaches that a marriage takes place when a couple has sex and/or agrees to get married?

Quote
1549 Book of Common Prayer
THE FORME OF SOLEMNIZACION OF MATRIMONIE.

¶ First the bannes must be asked three several Soondayes or holye dayes. in the service tyme, the people beeyng presente, after the accustomed maner. etc., etc.

Sorry, but my Bible does not contain that passage. Therefore, I stand with Luther and all the other Reformers that unless you can show me from SCRIPTURE where such a thing is taught, I cannot accept such a thing as that which binds my conscience and demands my obedience.


Quote
Quote
Westminster Confession of Faith
Adultery or fornication committed after a contract, being detected before marriage, gives just occasion to the innocent party to dissolve that contract.

Do you agree or disagree with Westminster? Or, is it simply obsolete? A remnant of an orthodox past when Christian betrothal actually meant a lifelong commitment?

I agree with the WCF on this matter, as it can be substantiated from SCRIPTURE. Notice that this statement says "being detected [/b]". Therefore, it clearly disproves your novel view that marriage is solemnized and legitimate when two people either have sex together and/or when they agree between themselves to get married. If that were true, then you are forced to confess that as long as two people agree "to be married" then they cannot be guilty of fornication, for they are in your opinion already married. SCRIPTURE is against you,


1 Corinthians 7:9 (ASV) "But if they have not continency, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."


So, is it your understanding that Paul is saying that if a couple burns with lust (passion) for each other then all that is necessary is that they should simply commit to marry? which is synonymous with actual marriage? I can agree to buy a car from an automobile dealership, but that is not the same as my actually owning the car.

In His grace,


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Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: Pilgrim] #28710
Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:21 PM
Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:21 PM

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Pilgrim said:
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speratus said:

Not the Deformed Standard Version but the moral law of God as revealed in the Ten Commandments. Your modernist view runs counter to the historic practice of Reformation churches. The posting of banns was included in the first prayer book of the Anglican Church.

The Ten Commandments you say? So, which commandment applies to this issue and teaches that a marriage takes place when a couple has sex and/or agrees to get married?


For the last time, I never said that marriage took place when a couple had sex and/or agreed to get married. However, when there is a rightful betrothal, they are husband and wife in the sight of God per Matt. 1:19-20.

Quote
Pilgrim adds
Quote
1549 Book of Common Prayer
THE FORME OF SOLEMNIZACION OF MATRIMONIE.

¶ First the bannes must be asked three several Soondayes or holye dayes. in the service tyme, the people beeyng presente, after the accustomed maner. etc., etc.

Sorry, but my Bible does not contain that passage. Therefore, I stand with Luther and all the other Reformers that unless you can show me from SCRIPTURE where such a thing is taught, I cannot accept such a thing as that which binds my conscience and demands my obedience.


Exodus 20:12. The Christian couple delights in honoring those in authority over them. In the 1549 Book of Common Prayer, church and state wisely required a waiting period and public annoucement to ensure there was no fraud by either party or no other impediment to the union. This requirement has been unwisely relaxed by most churches and governments.

Quote
Pilgrim adds
So, is it your understanding that Paul is saying that if a couple burns with lust (passion) for each other then all that is necessary is that they should simply commit to marry? which is synonymous with actual marriage? I can agree to buy a car from an automobile dealership, but that is not the same as my actually owning the car.


Once you sign the contract, you own the car and the dealer owns your money even though he still has possession of the car and you haven't written the check. To continue your analogy, marriage fulfills the terms of the contract. In marriage, the husband and wife (by contract) are transferred from the custody of their parents to each other's custody.

Last edited by speratus; Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:34 PM.
Re: The modern wedding ceremony... #28711
Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:07 AM
Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:07 AM
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You STILL have shown no biblical support for your view.... surprise, surprise. You quote from the Book of Common Prayer, other secondary sources and tradition. Exodus 20:12 has no bearing upon the issue whatsoever.


2 Timothy 2:15 (ASV) "Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth."



Lastly, as to the little quick analogy I offered with one who "agrees" to buy an automobile, it surely fits. An agreement to buy the car does not bind one to do so nor does it bind the salesman to hold the car. It is more of a courtesy. Until one actually signs the PURCHASE AGREEMENT, there is no legal contract. And when that contract is signed, then you DO in fact own the car.

In His grace,


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Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: Pilgrim] #28712
Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:07 AM
Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:07 AM
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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
Link said:
In the Bible, the covenant is usually between the bride's father and the groom (or groom's father on behalf of the groom, perhaps, in the case of Samson.)

And what bearing does that have outside theocratic Israel and its unique civil laws and/or customs upon new covenant believers today? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

In 1Cor 7:9 and 36, Paul is addressing individual men and women in regard to their entering into marriage, enjoining them to do so personally. If there was any place where O.T. Israelic marriage practices might be expected to be mentioned, it would have been there. Yet, we see nothing mentioned. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> Nor is there any other place in the entire N.T. where the male head of a household is instructed to contract a marriage for his children.

In His grace,



I was responding to a post that said that marriage was a covenant between a man and a woman. I do not see this concept in scripture, per se. I suppose one could argue it from the 'one flesh' passage, but that does not say anything about making vows before a congregation. This is a western cultural concept-- that has been exported to other cultures through western cultural expressions of Christianity.

Some would interpret I Corinthians 7 to refer to fathers or heads of households arranging marriages for their daughters. Take a look at the footnotes of an NIV. One interpretation is that the man who gives his virgin in marriage is the father giving his daughter in marriage. I suppose the other interpretation would be that a man promised a woman in an arranged marriage could choose not to marry her.

Other than this, the New Testament does nto go into great detail into how marriages are to be arranged. Aside from a possible intepretation of I Cor. 7, it does not specify that fathers arrange marriages for their daughters (though that must have been practiced by many Christians living when the NT scriptures were written.)

Personally, I believe God gives us freedom for many different cultural practices. Fathers giving their daughters away is still practiced in some places. In general, I do believe a father's premission should be sought, particularly when both families are Christians.

Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: Pilgrim] #28713
Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:33 AM
Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:33 AM

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Pilgrim said:
You STILL have shown no biblical support for your view.... surprise, surprise. You quote from the Book of Common Prayer, other secondary sources and tradition. Exodus 20:12 has no bearing upon the issue whatsoever.


Quote
From Thomas Vincent's, The Shorter Catechism Explained from Scripture, (Banner of Truth)

Q. 1. What is the subject of this fifth commandment, or who are the persons of whom the duties of this commandinent are required?
A. The subject of the fifth commandment, or the persons of whom the duties of this commandment are required, are relations, especially children and all inferiors, in reference to their parents and superiors, and inclusively superiors in reference to their inferiors, and equals also in reference one to another.

Q. 2. Whom are we to understand by inferiors?
A. By inferiors we are to understand, not only children, but also wives, servants, people, subjects, the younger, and the weaker in gifts or graces.

Q. 3. Whom are we to understand by superiors?
A. By superiors, under the name of father and mother, we are to understand, not oniy parents, but also husbands, masters, ministers, magistrates, the aged, and stronger in gifts or graces.


The Christian couple delight in obeying their personal minister and magistrate by obtaining a license and announcing their engagement well in advance (banns). They don't drive to Vegas for a quickie wedding by an indifferent minister and magistrate.

Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: Link] #28714
Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:15 PM
Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:15 PM
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Link sings this unchained melody,

I was responding to a post that said that marriage was a covenant between a man and a woman. I do not see this concept in scripture, per se. I suppose one could argue it from the 'one flesh' passage, but that does not say anything about making vows before a congregation. This is a western cultural concept-- that has been exported to other cultures through western cultural expressions of Christianity.

Marriage is a covenant relationship. Malachi 2:14 states:

Quote
Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because Jehovah hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously, though she is thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

God even looked at the Old Covenant as a marriage contract between Himself and Israel. Through the prophet Jeremiah, He tells Israel, "I am married to you" (Jer 3:14, KJV, ASV uses husband, etc.). Moreover, in Ezekiel 16:8, the prophet Ezekiel, connects the Old Covenant with marriage, saying:

Quote
Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord Jehovah, and thou becamest mine.

However, even the NT uses the covenant language/illustration(s) of Marriage. Look at Matthew 26:27-28:

Quote
And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

Hebrew tradition states that when a young man and woman were to be betrothed for marriage, the groom poured wine into his cup and invited the woman to drink of it (sheva brachos, you may also look up the terms; shidduch, vort, ketuvah, bedekin, chuppah, and the kiddushin). The choice was hers: If she drank from it, she was considered betrothed to the young man. She was agreeing to experience all the things that his life entailed. When the woman drank of the cup, she drank of the marriage covenant and accepted it. Above we see the husband and His bride (the church) in covenant communion.

Paul refers to this when he tells the church in 2 Corinthians 11:2, saying “For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ.” Indeed, the church is the bride of Christ (Rev. 19:7-8; 21:2, 9), which carries on the covenant similarity with the OC. We could go further and trace the covenant from the Old to the New and reveal the whole story of redemption beginning with God’s eternal plan (The Covenant of Redemption) and ending with the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:7-8), but time or space does not permit…... However, the proof is overwhelming in both the Old and New Testaments that marriage is a covenant relationship. I find it very interesting that the Bible opens and closes with scenes of marriage.

As far as taking vows before a congregation I see Adam and Eve taking them before the whole world! Was the Garden part the western cultural concept? Even the Jews take a vow. The groom, takes a plain gold ring and places it on the finger of the bride, and recites in the presence of two witnesses, "Behold you are sanctified (betrothed) to me with this ring, according to the Law of Moses and Israel" (kiddushin). At the reception, the first thing usually done is the completion, signing and witnessing of the ketuvah, or marriage contract. This contract is ordained by Mishnaic law (circa 170 CE) and according to some authorities dates back to Biblical times. The ketuvah, written in Aramaic, details the husband's obligations to his wife: food, clothing, dwelling and pleasure. It also creates a lien on all his property to pay her a sum of money and support should he divorce her, or predecease her. The document is signed by the groom and witnessed by two people, and has the standing of a legally binding agreement, that in many countries is enforceable by secular law. (OhrSomayach.edu)

Quote
Link stated,

Some would interpret I Corinthians 7 to refer to fathers or heads of households arranging marriages for their daughters. Take a look at the footnotes of an NIV. One interpretation is that the man who gives his virgin in marriage is the father giving his daughter in marriage. I suppose the other interpretation would be that a man promised a woman in an arranged marriage could choose not to marry her.

Other than this, the New Testament does nto go into great detail into how marriages are to be arranged. Aside from a possible intepretation of I Cor. 7, it does not specify that fathers arrange marriages for their daughters (though that must have been practiced by many Christians living when the NT scriptures were written.)

It may do you some good to study Jewish history? In it you will discover the discussion of shidduch.. Here is a quote that may help;

Quote
The very first stage of a traditional Jewish marriage, is the shidduch, or matchmaking. This means that the process of finding a partner is not haphazard or based on purely external aspects. Rather, a close friend or relative of the young man or woman, who knows someone that they feel may be a compatible partner, suggests that they meet. The purpose of the meeting is for the prospective bride and groom to determine if they are indeed compatible. The meetings usually focus on discussion of issues important to marriage as well as casual conversation. The Talmud states that the couple must also be physically attractive to each other, something that can only be determined by meeting. According to Jewish law physical contact is not allowed between a man and a woman until they are married (except for certain close relatives), and also they may not be alone together in a closed room or secluded area. This helps to ensure that one's choice of partner will be based on the intellect and emotion as opposed to physical desire alone.

Thus, this is not an arranged marriage….

While there may be many things within a marriage ceremony that we may not embrace today as Christians, it is important to note the following phrase which if used correctly can be of great benefit; “In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: J_Edwards] #28715
Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:42 AM
Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:42 AM
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J Edwards

The Micah passage could be interpretted as seeing the covenant the groom entered into with the father to get the bride. The Ezekiel passage is more persuasive, if we assume that the metaphor of God's covenant with Israel is indicative of all marriages.

On the wedding night, there is shedding of blood, (or can be) another aspect of covenant.

About your Jewish commentary on the man giving his virgin, I do not think that necessarily applies. I Corinthians was probably written primarily to Gentiles. It does not even contain asides directed just to Jews as the book of Romans does. I would suspect the Gentiles did not follow Jewish customs in regard to courtship and marriage.

And the Jewish custom (which you do not show goes back to the first century) of using a friend or relative could still occur in a form of arranged marriage. It sounds similar to some Korean customs, and Koreans who get married that way are considered to have an 'arranged marriage.'

Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: Link] #28716
Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:43 PM
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Link, I am glad you finally see marriage as covenantal.

Quote
Link limps,

About your Jewish commentary on the man giving his virgin, I do not think that necessarily applies. I Corinthians was probably written primarily to Gentiles. It does not even contain asides directed just to Jews as the book of Romans does. I would suspect the Gentiles did not follow Jewish customs in regard to courtship and marriage.

Jews were certainly included in the citizenry of Corinth. According to Carson, Moo, and Morris, archeology even unearthed inscriptions with the words, “Synagogue of the Hebrews” there. However, the Scripture is our highest authority! It says in Acts 18:1-8:

Quote
After these things he departed from Athens, and came to Corinth. And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, a man of Pontus by race, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome: and he came unto them; and because he was of the same trade, he abode with them, and they wrought, for by their trade they were tentmakers. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks. But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was constrained by the word, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. And when they opposed themselves and blasphemed, he shook out his raiment and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. And he departed thence, and went into the house of a certain man named Titus Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue. And Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Paul preached to the Jews in Cointh, as 1 Cor 1:22-24 states, "Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness; but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." Now, are you sure 1 Corinthians was primarily written to the Gentiles? I think we can safely say he wrote to both, however, from what position would Paul have been writing from? See below.

Quote
Link limps,

And the Jewish custom (which you do not show goes back to the first century) of using a friend or relative could still occur in a form of arranged marriage. It sounds similar to some Korean customs, and Koreans who get married that way are considered to have an 'arranged marriage.'

So we are to read upon the Scripture what the Koreans do/did? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> If you would like read the Talmud and/or the Mishna (Nashim) for more on Jewish marriage please do so. However, the opposition to coerced marriages was prevalent in Abraham's family even before Judaism. In the Torah's account of Isaac's marriage (Genesis 24), when Abraham's servant Eliezer proposes to take Rebecca back to Canaan to marry Isaac, he is told by Rebecca's family (who were not into his new religion): "Let us ask the maiden” (Gen 24:57-58). From here the Jews derived that no one may be married against their choice. This indeed has always been the practice within the Jewish community since its inception. Now what would Paul a Jew think? Would he enforce his Roman citizenship beliefs upon Christ's Church or speak the Word?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: J_Edwards] #28717
Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:15 AM
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Let he who hath the Spirit of God read and understand....I have read many of the post on this subject which has prompted me to join this site in order that I may comment and give clarification. Before there was a wedding ceremony (which did not validate your marriage union), the way one was considered and recognized as married in the sight of God was by the consumation of the agreement of the two involved (man and woman). There was no priest or prophet presiding over a ceremony. When these two consented and consumated their commitment, they were married. They became one flesh through the act of sexual intercourse where the male organ breaks the hymen of the woman(the cutting associated with the Hebrew word for covenant "katab berit" or "cutting a covenant") where she bleeds blood(like a symbol of the veil being rent or torn) symbolizing the creating of the two entering into covenant with each other. This has the same significance as the circumcision of Abraham and other sacrifices as well as the blood of our Saviour and Lord Jesus. Understand that there was no "Law" when couples were married before. The Law didnt come until Moses. The only governing instructions given (at this point) were in Genesis 2:24. They are become "one flesh" no more two but one.....a union before God. The actual ceremonial part was adopted by the Romans from pagan cultures as well as other of our holidays such as halloween and easter who incorporated them as well as others into the Church. Like they were also responsible for changing (as if they could alter what God said)the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. So please dont get the tradition and commandments of men mixed up with what God instituted. I am not saying that I am against wedding ceremonies becuz I am not. They are good. It is good to profess your love and commitment before the witness of men and God. God says that we are subject to the law of the land and you are not legally married according to the law until you do everything according to the law. Fornication is not the same thing. There is no commitment there as in our commitment to God. Just because one reads the Bible and goes to church all the time doesnt mean he is saved. They must make a commitment to God through acknowledging their belief and confession of Jesus Christ bleeding and dying for their sins; that he is the Son of God; that God has raised Him from the dead then are you saved. They must also have an understanding of this and its significance also lest they merely make an empty confession. How much can one truly believe something and not have knowledge of what it is or entails? Same thing with the commitment of a man and woman. This was serious business back then (and should be now). Why do you think Simeon and Levi acted the way they did when their sister Dinah was defiled? Read it! (Genesis 34) He that ears to hear, let him hear. Listen people, dont try to understand God with your intellect. He is a Spirit. The flesh cannot comprehend the things of the spirit. Thats why we have so much division today. Let God give you revelation through the Holy Ghost who is the Spirit of Truth. Let Him teach and lead you. Lean not to your own understanding.

Re: The modern wedding ceremony... [Re: promised] #28718
Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:44 PM
Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:44 PM
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promised said:
He that ears to hear, let him hear. Listen people, dont try to understand God with your intellect. He is a Spirit. The flesh cannot comprehend the things of the spirit. Thats why we have so much division today. Let God give you revelation through the Holy Ghost who is the Spirit of Truth. Let Him teach and lead you. Lean not to your own understanding.

Do NOT lean upon ethereal voices or inner feelings but rather:


Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Ephesians 4:17-18 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;

1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee."


Obviously, myriad more passages could be supplied to show that God first communicates to and through a man's intellect (mind) to which the heart is then moved to the end that one's will (actions) are conformed. The very fact that we are given the written Word, aka: Scripture, the Bible, is testimony enough to prove this truth. Granted, only a regenerated individual will embrace the truth of Scripture and be conformed by and to it, yet the truth remains, the intellect is a necessary element to accomplish that transformation.


Colossians 1:9-10 "For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray and make request for you, that ye may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to walk worthily of the Lord unto all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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