THANK YOU!!!! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/thewave.gif" alt="thewave" title="thewave[/img] Finally some one i can talk to about this. <br><br>I love Zao. And officer negative. I'm not as big on punk as i used to be. I also like emo(though i wish they would come up with a less absurd name for it) but lately i've been listening to metalcore bands like NOrma Jean, Anah Aevia, Foreknown(very solid songs about God), some of the old strongarm stuff (made up mostly of guys who are now in Further Seems forever) and Falling Cycle.<br><br>Maybe since were not [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/takethat.gif" alt="takethat" title="takethat[/img] [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/argue.gif" alt="argue" title="argue[/img] they will put this back on Chatterbox where it belongs.
I like punk music live a lot better than on CD and such. It's faster and you get to see what the band is like as people. Our local scene here is great with that kind of music. I've hung out with Sidewalk Slam and Joy Electric (Joy Electric not being punk of course) and it is just incredible the way the bands are. You don't get that in the Christian pop world at all. But in the edgier music scene, you got people who are willing to hang out with their fans and possibly share the amazing saving sovereign grace of Jesus with them.
Cool. I havean't been to alot of shows. There pretty rare here in MS. Every now and then a descent band will come to Jackson or Hattiesburg. I'm usually broke when that happens. I've seen alot more sincerity in the edgier bands than i have in the poppier ones to be honest. ONe problem is that all Christian bands are moving farther and farther from the truth in their songs. They usually just beat around the bush and water down the Gospel. But its still a start for some kids to get interested in Christ.
What I would like to see someday is a Christian punk band preaching the truth of the Reformed faith. A Calvinist punk band. That'd be something so crazy awesome. Who knows if that will ever happen though in these days of semi-Arminian and borderline Pelagian theological views and a straying away from Biblical truths [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/crybaby.gif" alt="crybaby" title="crybaby[/img]
I don't know of any Reformed punk bands or metalcore or whatever it is[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/igiveup.gif" alt="igiveup" title="igiveup[/img]. Have you tried Caedmon's Call or Derek Webb(formerly of Caed.Call)? I've found their lyrics to be quite in line with reformed theology and not at all shallow. Again, not punk or metalcore...I think they would be considered folk or folk-rock. <br><br>my $.02
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]What I would like to see someday is a Christian punk band preaching the truth of the Reformed faith.</font><hr></blockquote><p>You obviously haven't a clue as to how absurd this idea is, do you? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img] Is is akin to wanting to see a group of practicing homosexuals open a coffee shop for males where they can hear the doctrines of grace preached. Or, to open a "Christian" bordello where the prostitutes hand out gospel tracts to their customers before they leave. You may rightly lament the proliferation and popularity of semi-Pelagianism and other aberrant theological views. But you have totally failed to discern the evil of this type of worldly and satanic "music". When the Spirit moved through the hearers of Ephesus, regenerating them and convicting them of their idolatrous sins, etc., the showed forth fruit of repentance by BURNING those things which were contrary to all righteousness and godliness. Today, people don't burn wicked and worldly things.... they "baptize" them and bring them along with them wherever they go, just like the little idols of the O.T..<blockquote>2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (KJV) "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."<br><br>Ephesians 4:17-24 (ASV) "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart; who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit; and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth."<br><br>Ephesians 5:3-16 (ASV) "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints; nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them; For ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light (for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth), proving what is well-pleasing unto the Lord; and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them; for the things which are done by them in secret it is a shame even to speak of. But all things when they are reproved are made manifest by the light: for everything that is made manifest is light. Wherefore [he] saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee. Look therefore carefully how ye walk, not as unwise, but as wise; redeeming the time, because the days are evil."<br><br>1 Peter 2:9-12 (ASV) "But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for [God's] own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lust, which war against the soul; having your behavior seemly among the Gentiles; that, wherein they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."<br><br>1 John 2:15-17 (ASV) "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."</blockquote>Cast off this hold that this "music" has on you and [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flee.gif" alt="flee" title="flee[/img] from it as far as you can possibly get. Heavy Metal, Punk, Rap, etc., etc... is not of God and will not only destroy the credibility of your profession, but it will assuredly blind you to the truth of Christ; both in doctrine and life.<br><br>In His Grace,
I was a Punker before I was a Christian. The reason that I say that is that I've become a Christian Hippie since. When I became a Christian I went to a Christian bookstore and asked for Christian Punk. I was handed a card with some of my favorite secular Punk bands on one side and their Christian counterparts on the other. I find that most of the bands who play such music are just Christianized derivative. Also my ears have softened and I have moved on to Jazz. I did like a Tempe, Arizona based band called The Justified for a while. But I gave the CD to a Ukrainian. That's my five shillings worth.
I am niether a homosexual or a prostitute nor do any of the bands i listen to take part in these things as far as i know. If Godly people are playing music to Godly lyrics and acting in a Godly manner then it is to the Glory of God. Any style of music can be made unholy if unregenerate people are singing godless lyrics and using it for godless ends. I'm finished talking about this. It was supposed to be a casual chat about one of my interests but now its just [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scold.gif" alt="scold" title="scold[/img]. We will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
NOTHING was even hinted at that you are personally homosexual or a prostitute, etc. Your response only goes to prove my point, which has been shown here countless times with those who, like yourself, have been snared and held captive by this satanic influence you call "music". If someone criticizes it, it is like someone is questioning one's salvation, although pushed to the ultimate, there may be some validity to that. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img] The foundational error is that you have cast off the biblical truth that NOTHING is "amoral". Things, thoughts, and deeds are either good or they are bad. Either they glorify God or they do not. Even those things which are called "Adiaphora" (things indifferent), everything is inherently good else they could never be deemed acceptable for a believer.<br><br>The fallacy of this worldly philosophy has also been demonstrated on this Board many times over. It can be reduced down to a logical syllogism, which in itself is illogical. <br><br>[color:blue]God created music,<br>Therefore, music is good.<br>Metalcore [Punk, ska, et al] is music,<br>Therefore, Metalcore, etc..... is good.</font color=blue><br><br>So that you can see how fallacious this way of thinking is and totally unbiblical, let's substitute something which we all know is sinful in the syllogism and see how it works out.<br><br>[color:red]God created sex,<br>Therefore, sex is good.<br>Homosexuality is sex,<br>Therefore, homosexuality is good.</font color=red><br><br>That should hopefully shock your brain a bit to get you to think beyond the captivating influence that has you thinking in this manner and to adopt a biblical pattern of thinking concerning what is lawful, pure, good, etc. Here is how the syllogism should read:<br><br>[color:purple]God created music,<br>Therefore music is good.<br>God created Metalcore,<br>Therefore Metalcore is good.</font color=purple><br><br>The problem should now be crystal clear. God did NOT create any particular "style/form" of music; man did. Thus, man being inherently evil, each style/form of music must be judged individually according to an OBJECTIVE standard along with its subjective influence and its original intent, etc. That objective standard is the Scripture which reveals to us the true nature of God and His expressed attributes. And there is the objective standard of music theory, etc. A superficial comparison of these modern types of "music", e.g., Heavy Metal, ska, Punk, etc. will show that there is virtually nothing about them that exemplifies the nature and/or attributes of God. One cannot take something which is UNGodly and "baptize" it by saying that it can be "used" by Christians with right motives, etc., and thus it is good. As I tried to illustrate, you cannot take something which is immoral and "Christianize" it.<br><br>Lastly, don't think that just because I'm much older than you that this is simply a matter of "gramps" vs. the young generation. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] I was playing R&R in Hollywood before you were born, that is true. My band also won the "Battle of the Bands" sponsored by Rolling Stone Magazine with all the "benefits", etc.. We also were offered a recording contract with Columbia Records. I've rubbed shoulders with the "big names" in the music industry, e.g., Tim Buckley, The Monkeys, Mamas and Papas, The Nitty Ditty Dirt Band, etc. The point is, I'm no stranger to contemporary "music". In fact, I have personal knowledge and experience as to what it is, why it was written, it's purpose, what it can and does accomplish, etc.. I also have advanced degrees in music, thus I am more than familiar with music theory, and more. But most importantly, I am a Christian who is fairly well versed in the Word of God and know what is "worldly" and what is "godly" and what a believer should be allowing to enter into their mind and body. You are playing with fire here my friend and I pray you will not be permanently scarred or even worse, suffer the fires that never go out at that last day. This is serious business and not, as the Evil One would have you believe, just a matter of personal "taste" or preference. Trust me...... in Heaven, the host of angels and departed saints are not having a mosh pit with Jesus Christ being the lead singer of a celestial Metalcore band. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,
Pilgrim hit it on the head. I may only add, from FREEDOM MINISTRIES:<br><br>There appears to be a parallel between the attempt today to "Christianize" rock music and the "Christianization" of various pagan religious practices in fourth century Rome. The Babylonian mystery religions were introduced into Christianity by Constantine in 313 A.D. as he tried to incorporate the pagans into the newly constituted "Holy" Roman Empire. The Constantine-led Roman church was willing to adapt and adopt pagan practices in order to make Christianity palatable to the heathen. The heathen festivals were adopted into Christianity, and then eventually, many of the associated pagan symbols and actions were reinterpreted in ways acceptable to Christian faith and practice. "Christianization" of pagan customs, symbols, etc., occurred as Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagans could "convert" without giving up their old beliefs and rituals. <br><br>Has not the modern church of today done much of the same adoption, reinterpretation, and "Christianization" of what is called "rock music" in order to make Christianity more palatable to the "teenaged" lost? And does not this approach smack of the traditional Roman Catholic method of making converts from pagans?-first adopt the pagan practices, and then reapply biblical meaning to them. In this manner, the former pagans can retain their pagan idolatrous heritage by merely renaming the idols and changing the terminology used in the worship of them. <br><br>Go to the Rock that is higher than you!
I see what you are saying, but I don't agree fully. Here is a quote from St. Augustine's "On Christian Doctrine" <blockquote>[color:purple]If those who are called philosophers, especially the platonists, have said things which are indeed true and are well accomodated to our faith, they should not be feared; rather, what they have said should be taken from them as from unjust posessors and converted to our use. Just as the Egyptians had not only idols and grave burdens which the people of Israel detested and avoided, so also they had vases and ornaments of Gold and silver and clothing which the Israelites took with them secretly when they fled, as if to put them to a better use. They did not do this on their own authority but at God's commandment, while the Egyptians unwittingly supplied them with things which they themselves did not use well. In the same way all the teachings of the pagans contain not only simulated and superstitous imaginings and grave burdens of unnecessary labor, which each one of us leaving the society of pagans under the leadership of Christ ought to abominate and avoid, but also liberal disciplines more suited to the uses of truth, and some most useful precepts concerning morals. Even some truths concerning the worship of one God are discovered among them...When the Christian seperates himself from their miserable society, he should take this treasure with him for the just use of teaching the gospel.</font color=purple> (2.40.60)</blockquote>Now this does pertain to teaching, but I think we can apply it to music as well. If something is suitable to the preaching of the gospel, then why shy away from it? Man invented the internet but the internet is not all bad. Man invented the car but the car is not all bad. Man invented the airplane but the airplane is not bad. What's bad is some of the people who use those things. <br><br>In that same book, Augustine talks about how some things are to be used, some enjoyed, and some used and enjoyed. And those things which are enjoyed are to be enjoyed in that they glorify God. What glorifies God is the heart behind the music. Take some hymns for example. Some of our hymns were written to the music of secular songs. I am not sure what ones exactly, but that is just something I have heard. And some of the hymns by the Wesleys, if I am not mistaken, were written before he was saved. So those hymns should not be sung even if the lyrics are totally true to the Bible, if we say everything made by man is bad. <br><br>I believe that Christian men can lay hold of some things of this world and use them to bring the truth of the gospel to people who are dead in sin. A preacher standing before a room of punk teenagers is not going to be well accepted and may even cause all of those people to leave. But a band of people who are on their level, preaching to them in words they can understand and accepting them in hopes that God may save some...that is a biblical mindset. As Paul says, <blockquote>[color:blue]To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.</font color=blue> (1 Corinthians 9:22 NASB)</blockquote>I think that some things are a matter of conscience. As, again, Paul says, <blockquote>[color:blue]But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.</font color=blue> (Romans 14:23 NASB)</blockquote>Just my 2 cents.<br>
I am sure Pilgrim will respond, but until then,<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]A preacher standing before a room of punk teenagers is not going to be well accepted and may even cause all of those people to leave. But a band of people who are on their level, preaching to them in words they can understand and accepting them in hopes that God may save some...that is a biblical mindset.... 1 Cor 9:22</font><hr></blockquote><p> So, if I reason this way than I should become an adulterer, so I can minister to adulators, or a pornographer, so I can minister to pornographers, or a child molester, so I can minister to child molesters? After all each of these embraces a form of "weakness" if I use the term in the manner in which you think it is meant.<br><br>You have taken Augustine's argument and more importantly the Scripture and made an equivocal error. Augustine said [color:red]have said things which are indeed true and are well accommodating to our faith</font color=red>. So, the first question you must ask yourself: Is adultery true and accommodating to our faith? NO, Is pornography true and accommodating to our faith? NO, Is child molestation true and accommodating to our faith? Is rock music true and accommodating to our faith, when its roots are ingrained in rites honoring the pagan deities Cybele, Bacchus, and Dionysius (including ecstatic noises accompanied by gongs, cymbals, and trumpets), et. al.? NO!!!<br><br>Weakness in 1 Cor 9:22, far from meaning that we must become "worse" sinners than we already are to minister to another sinner, means within the bounds of God’s Word, we should not offend the Jew, Gentile, or those weak in understanding... and thus stoop to their level of understanding. But, Paul did not mean changing Scripture or compromising the truth in an attempt to stoop.. <br><br>As Calvin says,<br><br>Now, if we consider how great a man Paul was, who stooped thus far, ought we not to feel ashamed — we who are next to nothing in comparison with him — if, bound up in self, we look with disdain upon the weak, and do not deign to yield up a single point to them? But while it is proper that we should accommodate ourselves to the weak, according to the Apostle’s injunction, and that, in things indifferent, and with a view to their edification, those act an improper part, who, with the view of consulting their own ease, avoid those things that would offend men, and the wicked, too, rather than the weak. Those, however, commit a two-fold error, [color:blue]who do not distinguish between things indifferent and things unlawful, and accordingly do not hesitate, for the sake of pleasing men, to engage in things that the Lord has prohibited.</font color=blue> [color:red]The crowning point, however, of the evil is this — that they abuse this statement of Paul to excuse their wicked dissimulation.</font color=red> <br><br>Calvin, John. Calvin's Commentaries: 1 Corinthians. electronic ed. Logos Library System;Calvin's Commentaries, 1 Co 9:22. Albany, OR: Ages Software, 1998.