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J_Edwards #29291 Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:31 PM
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J_Edwards #29292 Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:32 PM
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J Edwards

In regard to my question about James 5, look at the specific quote from William that I was referring to, and the claim that he made.

If you no longer believe in 'gifts' what about the 'gifts' that do not offend the mind of the functional Rationalist, like teaching, exhotation, etc? Do you believe those have ceased? If not, on what scriptural authority do you put all the supernatural gifts in one category and say they have ceased. Can you show a scripture that says that gifts of healing or miracles will ever cease?

Also, why would God withdraw manifestations of His grace during this age of grace?

Link #29293 Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:53 PM
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If you no longer believe in 'gifts' what about the 'gifts' that do not offend the mind of the functional Rationalist, like teaching, exhotation, etc? Do you believe those have ceased? If not, on what scriptural authority do you put all the supernatural gifts in one category and say they have ceased. Can you show a scripture that says that gifts of healing or miracles will ever cease?
In case you have not noticed this thread is called "sign gifts", thus when I said the gifts have passed away I was referring to the thread at hand.

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Also, why would God withdraw manifestations of His grace during this age of grace?
First, God is God and HE can do whatever He wills in all the earth and thus--He did/does. Second, this is the age of GRACE--every age is--and God does not desire His people seeking for sign after sign, but His Son who died for them. Third, in every age of miracles in the Bible each came for a set time and then suddenly disappear. This is nothing new. As Big Mac says,

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Not all ages are miracle ages. If you study the Old Testament, there really are only two periods of miracles: One, the revealing of the law to Moses; and two, the lives of Elijah and Elisha when God was laying down the platform of prophetic revelation through His prophets. The rest of the Old Testament contains very few references of use of miracles, and none at the end of the Old Testament. Miracles have not been occurring all the time since the first one. And the reason is that God had a specific word to reveal, with limits and boundaries. When God was revealing either His written Word or Christ, His living Word, it was then and only then that He used miracles as a corroborating and confirming sign.


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Link #29294 Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:56 PM
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Link, please DO NOT post the same post twice, that is against the forum guidelines!

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The Highway's primary goal is to exalt God as He has revealed Himself and the Lord Jesus Christ, the only Saviour of sinners. Such knowledge is to be derived only from God's infallible and inerrant Word, the Bible. Subordinately, we hold to those truths as summarized in the five "Solas" of the Protestant Reformation; Sola Scriptura - Sola Gratia - Sola Fide - Solus Christus - Soli Deo Gloria. The doctrines which were rediscovered and formulated during that time and later preserved in the historic confessions are they which undergird this ministry. This forum encourages free discussion of other views that are not in accord with those believed to be of this tradition. However those messages that are of the following nature will be immediately deleted and the authors possibly banned from further participation. Those that post messages that do not qualify under these guidelines but are of questionable content will receive a warning and be asked to refrain from posting similar messages:

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Link #29295 Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:27 AM
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Link

If you go back and read my posts in this thread, you will notice I said that I am not a total cessationist. However, my beliefs are a lot closer to what cessationists believe than non-cessationist.
I believe this not because of experience, but because my studies took me away from most of the teaching that non-cessationsts believe.
These studies (over a long period of time) also lead me to start seeing things in my experiences that were not in keeping with what I saw the Bible to be teaching.

Experience does not rule what I believe; in fact if it was left up to me, because of the emotional high I used to get in the Charismatic Church, I probably would still be one today. It cost more than you can know to leave the Charismatic movement.
I only brought up this topic because it is an aspect of the issue that hadn't been brought up.
As far as me participating in the other threads on the issue, I would rather not get involved in them again.

Tom

Link #29296 Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:59 AM
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Link, with all the posts on revelations in the other forums I think I may have gotten one. This Lords day we sang this song (Trinity hymnal #574) and the last line of the third stanza said “Touch me and heal me, Saviour divine!” and I thought what is this plea is it a plea for a physical healing? Then it was revealed to me that it was not a plea for physical healing but a spiritual healing of a sin sick soul.

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Have thine own way, Lord! Have thine own way!
Thou art the Potter; I am the clay.
Mold me and make me after thy will
While I am waiting, yielded and still.

Have thine own way, Lord! Have thine own way!
Search me and try me, Master, today!
Whiter than snow, Lord, wash me just now,
As in thy presence humbly I bow.

Have thine own way, Lord! Have thine own way!
Wounded and weary, help me, I pray!
Power—all power—surely is thine!
Touch me and heal me, Saviour divine!

Have thine own way, Lord! Have thine own way!
Hold o'er my being absolute sway!
Fill with thy Spirit till all shall see
Christ only, always, living in me!

Trinity Hymnal #574

Then later during the preaching the pastor preached on Mathew 6:19-21 and it was revealed to me that if our treasures are here on this earth in the form of gifts and health then that is where our heart will be also but God forbid. May the Lord help us ALL to look upon Him and not our theology or our so called gifts but on Jesus Christ the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world.

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19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Bill




William #29297 Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:01 AM
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Sorry about the double post.

William, so do you believe that Holy Spirit reveals things through extra-scriptural hymns l ike the one you quoted(that do not contradict scripture) in addition to revealing things through scripture? Do you now think that God reveals things outside of scripture?

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Tom

Thank you for your response. I am sorry if I have wrongly interpreted what you said. I appreciate the humble way you present yourself on the forum, and I can since your sincerity here. This is not just theory for you, but a real life issue.

I have seen emotionalism, fluff and hype, too. They have TBN here on cable, too. I do not subscribe to cable, and if I did, I would probably rarely watch the network.

Most of the prophecy that I have heard that really hit home was not shouted or screamed, but spoken by people in a normal tone of voice. I am not really one for seeking emotional highs, either, but I suppose there are a lot of churches in the Charismatic movement that are really into that.

When did you get 'emotional highs'-- during the 'worship time' when you were singing? I know some people go to the opposite extreme and are against emotions in worship. When I read the songs about rejoicing before the Lord, I see a case for expressing emotions, positively, in praise of the Lord. If some people get emotional during that time, as long as they behave decently and in order and do not confuse their own emotions with the Holy Spirit, I do not have a problem with that. I find some of the old hymns quite moving myself, sometimes more so than the newer praise choruses.

What are your reasons, from the Bible, for being closer to cessationism? I do not see a case for the gifts ceasing in scripture. Of course, I do not see a case for a lot of the doctrines, practices, and cultural practices in some sectors in the Charismatic movement as well. But cessationism has to do with the idea that the gifts have ceased, not with rejecting these practices.

William #29299 Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:27 PM
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William said:
Sorry Link but: A service claiming to take care not only spiritual needs but also the physical needs
is of the devil

How can a service designed to take care of physical needs in addition to spiritual needs be seen as demonic? I think you need to rethink your theology.

1 John 3:17-19 ESV "But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? (18) Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. (19) By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him."

Mark 8:1-3 ESV "In those days, when again a great crowd had gathered, and they had nothing to eat, he called his disciples to him and said to them, (2) "I have compassion on the crowd, because they have been with me now three days and have nothing to eat. (3) And if I send them away hungry to their homes, they will faint on the way. And some of them have come from far away."

Acts 6:1-4 ESV "Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. (2) And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. (3) Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. (4) But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."

Love of the truth INCLUDES meeting the physical needs of indiviuals. If we do not do that, it PROVES that the love of God is not in us.

Please William, in your zeal to promote the truth, do not neglect the truth and so fall into the same category of those who did not receive a love for the truth.


“All that may be known of God for our salvation, especially his wisdom, love, goodness, grace and mercy on which the life of a soul depends, are represented to us in all their splendour in and through Christ.” John Owen
Matthew2414 #29300 Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:36 PM
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Matthew2414 stated,
How can a service designed to take care of physical needs in addition to spiritual needs be seen as demonic?

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The Holy Scripture states,

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #29301 Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:22 AM
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I don't have a problem with the idea that a service claiming to take care of physical needs as well as spiritual COULD be demonic. Pagan Hindus could theoretically make a claim in some sacrifice to false gods. Such a thing is theoretically possible.

But to make a blanket statement that any service that claims to take care of physical and spiritual needs is demonic is incredibly foolish. Why slander so many brethren in Christ who pray for the sick, or feed the poor, or minister to physical needs in their services in some way, and state that they are doing so.

J_Edwards #29302 Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:45 AM
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Yes, I guess a service that meets physical needs (in the form of healing) could be manipulated by demons. Then again, demons could be controlling the negative reaction against that kind of service by the religious establishment too.

Mark 3:1-6 ESV Again [Jesus] entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand. (2) And they watched Jesus, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. (3) And he said to the man with the withered hand, "Come here." (4) And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent. (5) And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. (6) The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.


“All that may be known of God for our salvation, especially his wisdom, love, goodness, grace and mercy on which the life of a soul depends, are represented to us in all their splendour in and through Christ.” John Owen
Pilgrim #29303 Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:22 AM
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Pilgrim said:
Robin,

I think this old adage sums up what you said quite well:

A man with an argument is no match for a man with an experience!

Dear Pilgrim,

With due respect sir. I re-read Robin's post to see what her argument actually was. It seems to me that she is the one that has had an experience (ie a bad experience in the Charismatic movement), and has not put forth an argument at all. Religious addiction, superstition, etc. There is a precious lack of scripture to back up those claims. Is it not true that we all believe in Sola Scriptura?

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 ESV "To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. (8) To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, (9) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, (10) to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. (11) All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."

Can we not take the Bible as it is, and say, God in His infinite wisdom and love, has blessed and continues to bless the church with manifestations of His Holy Spirit, to advance the gospel of His Kingdom, to all the peoples of the earth, for the glory of His name, and for the joy of His people.

And to make sure that we could not miss it, he inspired Paul to inform us, and to encourage us to earnestly desire these manifestations (called gifts.)

And isn't it awaesome that the purposes of God cannot fail, and that He will in fact accomplish all of His good purpose.


“All that may be known of God for our salvation, especially his wisdom, love, goodness, grace and mercy on which the life of a soul depends, are represented to us in all their splendour in and through Christ.” John Owen
Link #29304 Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:43 AM
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Link stated,

But to make a blanket statement that any service that claims to take care of physical and spiritual needs is demonic is incredibly foolish. Why slander so many brethren in Christ ...
As usual Link you, and now your new found friend (Matthew2414), take things from their context. William did not make a "blanket statement that any service that claims to take care of physical and spiritual needs is demonic." William stated,

Quote
A service claiming to take care not only spiritual needs but also the physical needs is of the devil, who HAS BEEN GIVEN power to perform lying signs and wonders.... II Thessalonians 2:9-12
Of course, William said the same thing "basically" as I when I posted the Matthew 7 reply. IF you are using SIGN GIFTS (the topic of this post) in the service (which biblically have passed away) then since they are not biblical ALL you have left is the Devil and his demonic host speaking with demonic breath (Acts 19:13-16)! William was merely saying in unison with the Apostle John;

Quote
Rev 2:9 I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

14-16 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner. Repent therefore; or else I come to thee quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth.

20-22 But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication. Behold, I cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of her works.
It is possible for the visible Church to have the teaching of the synagogue of Satan, the teaching of Balaam, the teaching of the Nicolaitans, and the prophetess Jezebel. Funny that the Scripture says, "who calleth herself a prophetess."

Now why do you continue to misrepresent other people's posts-- <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> John 8:44?

May God have mercy on your false judgment and give you grace to the acknowledging of the truth of Scripture.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Matthew2414 #29305 Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:36 PM
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Well Matthew sorry I did not reply sooner I work long hours bless God. Yes I have said some brief and bold statements. Nevertheless I stand by all that I have said. Of coarse the church must always do good concerning the poor and needy for Christ requires us to love our neighbor. But God is not our bellhop (one who does errands at a hotel). God does not come when we ding the bell. He does whatsoever He pleases to whom he pleases and that includes healing the sick. Any man who says come tonight and get healed is physician of no value concerning the souls of men and therefore does not love his neighbor. I do not want to drag this subject on any longer so this will be my last post. I hope the Lord will guide you also according to His word.
Bill




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