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Tom
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Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology #30317
Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:13 PM
Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:13 PM
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Posts: 13,472
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Pilgrim Offline

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speratus said:
Tom,

I'm sorry you fail to see the relevancy of my answer. I suggest you read the Lutheran symbolic book, "Bondage of the Will", in order to better understand the Lutheran position on why some believe and others don't.

Only God has free will. Everything that happens or doesn't happen happens or doesn't happen because of God's will. But, as Luther opines, "no cause or reason is to be assigned as a rule or standard by which He acts." Luther says concerning His cause or reason, "This belongs to those secrets of Majesty, where 'His judgments are past finding out.' Nor is it ours to search into, but to adore these mysteries."

Well, some of us have Luther's Bondage of the Will; myself I have read it over half-dozen times. However, Martin Luther's writings are NOT "inspired", just in case you weren't aware of that fact. Secondly, without the further explanation of application you have finally supplied, the quote itself was meaningless since the CONTEXT of the quote wasn't originally given. Thirdly, while the decree(s)/foreordination of God is the ultimate cause of all things; something you vacillate on depending upon how it effects your pet theories, and of which all Calvinists would unabashedly affirm, I believe that this is not what Tom was asking. The question of God's sovereignty is assumed by Tom, so it has to be that what he was/is asking is concerning man's responsibility. Thus, "Why does one man believe and another not?" What the question involves is whether or not, as some Lutherans teach, ALL men are given some type of "prevenient grace" whereby they are given the ability to use or refuse that grace and thus either accept it which results in regeneration or "resist" it and thus are hardened in unbelief.

Undoubtedly, Tom will have to explain in his own words what it is exactly he wants to know from you since you obviously don't understand the question. [Linked Image]

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Pilgrim] #30318
Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:44 PM
Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:44 PM
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Pilgrim said: What the question involves is whether or not, as some Lutherans teach, ALL men are given some type of "prevenient grace" whereby they are given the ability to use or refuse that grace and thus either accept it which results in regeneration or "resist" it and thus are hardened in unbelief.



wHAT IS IRONIC IS THAT HISTORICALLY THE REFORMED POSITION CONFIRMS PREVENIENT GRACE. For the elect. Immediate regeneration preceeding the Word for conversion. Luthers,rcc, wesley perveerted this into some neutral state off all.

Prevenient grace is also known as the "Expectation of the nations" Whereby the Holy Spirit preceedes man in preparing the heart to receive the word. Man is completely passive in this. I agree witht his because it also flatly contradicts the flase teaCHING of gospel regeneration


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Joe k] #30319
Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:52 PM
Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:52 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
Joe k said:
wHAT IS IRONIC IS THAT HISTORICALLY THE REFORMED POSITION CONFIRMS PREVENIENT GRACE. For the elect. Immediate regeneration preceeding the Word for conversion. Luthers,rcc, wesley perveerted this into some neutral state off all.

Prevenient grace is also known as the "Expectation of the nations" Whereby the Holy Spirit preceedes man in preparing the heart to receive the word. Man is completely passive in this. I agree witht his because it also flatly contradicts the flase teaCHING of gospel regeneration

Joe,

I think this is unfortunately [Linked Image]

However..... I also believe that this is deserving of a new topic; are you interested enough in discussing this to begin a new Thread? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Pilgrim] #30320
Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:21 PM
Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:21 PM
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Joe k Offline
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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
Joe k said:
wHAT IS IRONIC IS THAT HISTORICALLY THE REFORMED POSITION CONFIRMS PREVENIENT GRACE. For the elect. Immediate regeneration preceeding the Word for conversion. Luthers,rcc, wesley perveerted this into some neutral state off all.

Prevenient grace is also known as the "Expectation of the nations" Whereby the Holy Spirit preceedes man in preparing the heart to receive the word. Man is completely passive in this. I agree witht his because it also flatly contradicts the flase teaCHING of gospel regeneration

Joe,

I think this is unfortunately [Linked Image]

However..... I also believe that this is deserving of a new topic; are you interested enough in discussing this to begin a new Thread? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


I am sure it has been covered numerous times here. I was just pointing out the PG is not anti Sovereign God when taught correctly. IT is wrongly equated with Lutherism or wesely, when in fact it was clearly taught in the primitive church as well as a remnant throught the ages.

IS it necessary to debate Gospel Regeneration here?


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Joe k] #30321
Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:02 PM
Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:02 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Joe k said:
IS it necessary to debate Gospel Regeneration here?

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> That would obviously depend on what you mean by "Gospel Regeneration". Personally, I am not familiar with that particular term. IF by the term you are referring to Decisional Regeneration, then surely there is no need to discuss it as it is nearly universally rejected by most Calvinists. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Pilgrim] #30322
Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:22 PM
Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:22 PM
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Joe k Offline
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Pilgrim said:
Quote
Joe k said:
IS it necessary to debate Gospel Regeneration here?

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> That would obviously depend on what you mean by "Gospel Regeneration". Personally, I am not familiar with that particular term. IF by the term you are referring to Decisional Regeneration, then surely there is no need to discuss it as it is nearly universally rejected by most Calvinists. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


Well then perhaps there could be a future discussion at hand. Gospel regeneration is equal to decisional regeneration in some parts. But is also distinct. The Gospel regenerationaists believe that regeneration has to be accompanied by the preaching of the word. Where I believe in immediate regeneration without means. A secret operation of the Spirit that we are completely passive in regards to.

I am basing this on John 3 and Titus 3:5 mainly. THis is also my belief in prevenient grace, meaning the Holy Spirit preceedes the spoken word preparing our hearts to receive the glad tidings. It is a good debate.

Scripture makes the distinction between regeneration/quickening and Gospel conversion. So if this would like to be discussed, lets do it, if not, that is ok also


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Pilgrim] #30323
Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:01 PM
Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:01 PM

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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Thirdly, while the decree(s)/foreordination of God is the ultimate cause of all things; something you vacillate on depending upon how it effects your pet theories, and of which all Calvinists would unabashedly affirm, I believe that this is not what Tom was asking. The question of God's sovereignty is assumed by Tom, so it has to be that what he was/is asking is concerning man's responsibility. Thus, "Why does one man believe and another not?" What the question involves is whether or not, as some Lutherans teach, ALL men are given some type of "prevenient grace" whereby they are given the ability to use or refuse that grace and thus either accept it which results in regeneration or "resist" it and thus are hardened in unbelief.

Undoubtedly, Tom will have to explain in his own words what it is exactly he wants to know from you since you obviously don't understand the question. [Linked Image]

In His grace,


I can't respond to the question Tom may have wished to ask only the question he actually did ask. When Tom framed the question as to why one believes and not another, he took the issue to the level of the ultimate cause of all that occurs.

If he had merely asked why some do not believe, I would have given a answer that relates to man's responsibility, original sin, bondage of the will, etc. but not "prevenient grace" which is thoroughly condemned in the Lutheran symbols. However, that question would be off topic to the subject of Lutheran Soteriology.

Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Joe k] #30324
Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:41 PM
Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:41 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
Joe k said:
Well then perhaps there could be a future discussion at hand. Gospel regeneration is equal to decisional regeneration in some parts. But is also distinct. The Gospel regenerationaists believe that regeneration has to be accompanied by the preaching of the word. Where I believe in immediate regeneration without means. A secret operation of the Spirit that we are completely passive in regards to.

I am basing this on John 3 and Titus 3:5 mainly. THis is also my belief in prevenient grace, meaning the Holy Spirit preceedes the spoken word preparing our hearts to receive the glad tidings. It is a good debate.

Scripture makes the distinction between regeneration/quickening and Gospel conversion. So if this would like to be discussed, lets do it, if not, that is ok also

Methinks that your view would definitely be a debatable one, i.e., regeneration occurs totally apart from means and/or the relationship and distinctions between "prevenient grace" and regeneration. Soooooo, if you are of the mind to do so, please start a new thread on this topic. [Linked Image]

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Pilgrim] #30325
Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:39 AM
Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline OP
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Tom  Offline OP
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Pilgrim

My question was exactly the way you interpreted me, I thought that was obvious, but I guess it wasn't to Speratus.

Tom

Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Joe k] #30326
Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:07 AM
Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:07 AM

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Quote
Joe k said:
Gospel regeneration is equal to decisional regeneration in some parts. But is also distinct. The Gospel regenerationaists believe that regeneration has to be accompanied by the preaching of the word. Where I believe in immediate regeneration without means. A secret operation of the Spirit that we are completely passive in regards to.

I am basing this on John 3 and Titus 3:5 mainly. THis is also my belief in prevenient grace, meaning the Holy Spirit preceedes the spoken word preparing our hearts to receive the glad tidings.


The Lutheran Confessions reject both prevenient grace and enthusiastic grace.

Quote
Formula of Concord, Free Will
For the one side has held and taught that, although man cannot from his own powers fulfil God's command, or truly trust in God, fear and love Him, without the grace of the Holy Ghost, nevertheless he still has so much of natural powers left before regeneration as to be able to prepare himself to a certain extent for grace, and to assent, although feebly; however, that he cannot accomplish anything by them, but must succumb in the struggle, if the grace of the Holy Ghost is not added thereto.

4] Moreover [On the other side], both the ancient and modern enthusiasts have taught that God converts men, and leads them to the saving knowledge of Christ through His Spirit, without any created means and instrument, that is, without the external preaching and hearing of God's Word.

5] Against both these parties the pure teachers of the Augsburg Confession have taught and contended that by the fall of our first parents man was so corrupted that in divine things pertaining to our conversion and the salvation of our souls he is by nature blind, that, when the Word of God is preached, he neither does nor can understand it, but regards it as foolishness; also, that he does not of himself draw nigh to God, but is and remains an enemy of God, until he is converted, becomes a believer [is endowed with faith], is regenerated and renewed, by the power of the Holy Ghost through the Word when preached and heard, out of pure grace, without any cooperation of his own.

Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology #30327
Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:18 AM
Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:18 AM
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Quote
speratus said:
Quote
Formula of Concord, Free Will
5] Against both these parties the pure teachers of the Augsburg Confession have taught and contended that by the fall of our first parents man was so corrupted that in divine things pertaining to our conversion and the salvation of our souls he is by nature blind, that, when the Word of God is preached, he neither does nor can understand it, but regards it as foolishness; also, that he does not of himself draw nigh to God, but is and remains an enemy of God, <span style="background-color:yellow">until he is converted, becomes a believer [is endowed with faith], is regenerated and renewed, by the power of the Holy Ghost</span> through the Word when preached and heard, out of pure grace, without any cooperation of his own.

speratus,

HOW can you possibly accept what this fallible document says as being true and then use it to argue against a position that it agrees with? [Linked Image]

Notice the "ordo salutis" of this article:
  1. conversion
  2. becomes a believer [is endowed with faith]
  3. regenerated and renewed

This is EXACTLY what semi-Pelagianism/Arminianism teaches..... i.e., a man is first converted to Christ, believes on him and consequently is regenerated, aka: "born again". Natural man is spiritually DEAD and cannot be "converted", even by the power of Almighty God Himself without FIRST being regenerated, i.e., made spiritually alive. God cannot and does not force a man's will to do that which it by nature is opposed to. Thus, God "recreates" the will first in regeneration whereby those two faculties which control the will; intellect and affections are changed. DEAD men don't believe anything salvific...... they are DEAD.

So, once again we are exposed to yet another inconsistency and fundamental error in your precious Lutheran "standard of truth". None are so blind as those who will not see, eh?!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Synergism of Lutheran Soteriology [Re: Pilgrim] #30328
Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:30 PM
Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:30 PM

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Pilgrim,

I have read the Formula many times and have never understood that passage as being an ordo salutis, either sequentially or logically, but rather a list of things that occur instantaneously by the power of Holy Ghost through the word. I know that Calvinism seperates regeneration and justification but Lutheranism holds that regeneration is essentially justification by faith since they are never seperate.

Quote
Formula of Concord, Righteousness of Faith
For, in the first place, the word regeneratio, that is, regeneration, is used so as to comprise at the same time the forgiveness of sins for Christ's sake alone, and the succeeding renewal which the Holy Ghost works in those who are justified by faith. Then, again, it is [sometimes] used pro remissione peccatorum et adoptione in filios Dei, that is, so as to mean only the remission of sins, and that we are adopted as sons of God. And in this latter sense the word is much and often used in the Apology, where it is written: Iustificatio est regeneratio, that is, Justification before God is regeneration. St. Paul, too, has employed these words as distinct from one another, Titus 3, 5: He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Ghost. 20] As also the word vivificatio, that is, making alive, has sometimes been used in a like sense. For when man is justified through faith (which the Holy Ghost alone works), this is truly a regeneration, because from a child of wrath he becomes a child of God, and thus is transferred from death to life, as it is written: When we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ, Eph. 2, 5. Likewise: The just shall live by faith, Rom. 1, 17; Hab. 2, 4.

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