Donations for the month of January


We have received a total of $140 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
Pilgrim
Pilgrim
NH, USA
Posts: 13,354
Joined: April 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,587
Posts50,929
Members922
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,353
Tom 3,374
chestnutmare 2,895
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,750
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,057
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 48
Pilgrim 40
Kaylin 2
John_C 2
Meta4 1
Recent Posts
Overview of Scripture
by Tom. Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:56 AM
Theotokos
by Pilgrim. Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:53 PM
Jesus vs Paul and the Church
by Pilgrim. Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:09 AM
John the Baptist
by Meta4. Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:53 PM
Paul on a Young Earth
by Pilgrim. Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:23 PM
Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k
by Anthony C.. Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:48 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
#37452 - Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:57 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
Pilgrim said,

Hmmm, but your "faulty presupposition" that you refuse to begin with is ASSUMED to be faulty and thus it can be equally valid to say that you would begin with a faulty (assumed) presupposition that nearly anyone/everyone who came into your office was "saved".

Well besides the obvious that one could be neutral in this area (waiting for the results of the inquiry), my inquiry begins with the foundation that the person is telling the truth and not a lie. Sola Scriptura, – see below.

Quote
Pilgrim said,

As I stated elsewhere in this thread, I am a genuine, bona fide Calvinist, who by definition is by nature: suspicious. The N.T. is rife with examples, in fact the majority of those who professed faith in Christ whose "faith" were spurious.

The NT is also full of examples of true professions of faith as well (i.e. Paul, Apollos, etc.)! The professions of faith were so numerous in the early church that the Scripture states, “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls” (Acts 2:41). When a person makes a profession of faith we are to believe his profession, until proved otherwise. Paul, being a “bona fide Calvinist,” said that love believeth all things (1 Cor. 13:7). Now, this does not mean that a Christian filled with love lacks the qualities of wisdom and discernment and thus becomes the gullible dupe of every falsifier. On the contrary, love is always wise and discerning (Calvin). However, as Hendriksen says, the clause signifies that a Christian has faith in God, who will work out his divine plans even when all the indicators seem to point in different directions. Filled with love for God and neighbor, a believer trusts that God indeed will make his or her paths straight (Prov. 3:5–6). Moreover, love hopeth all things; but it is pretty hard to be hopeful if you see a demon in every person coming into your office. As Hendriksen stated, hope is patient, waiting for positive results that eventually may be realized. Hope is the converse of pessimism and the essence of healthy optimism. Thus, Paul – the scriptural Calvinist – began with a presumption of innocence (of love) before he proved all things (1 Thess. 5:21). Yes, he knew of everyone's depravity (Rom 1 and 5, etc.), but he was also considerate and godly in his approach (Gal. 6:1 ff).

In addition, Simeon the sorcerer was baptized as a believer (Acts 8:9). It was later discovered that he was not saved (18-19) but he was rebuked and corrected (20-23) and then he did not follow the words of Peter to repent (24-25, we don't know if he repented or not). But note, though Simeon had a hideous recent past, Philip believed Simeon’s profession until "evidence" (not mere speculation, assumptions, etc.) to the contrary revealed itself. Of course, Phillip must be one of those bad missionaries you refer to below.

Try as you may, you can never so fully examine someone to guarantee they are not a reprobate. Judas was on the staff of staff’s and made it a long way before he was even discovered. The disciples were legitimately surprised!!! But, though Judas was a reprobate our Lord ALWAYS treated him with love, truth, and respect. This is our example and thus should be our foundation.

Quote
Pilgrim said,

Since, IMHO, missionaries are the least to be trusted as to preaching the true Gospel….

Talking about false presumptions!!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

Well, since I am classified as a missionary I guess I know what you think of me. It is amazing how you know the heart of every missionary in the world and the Gospel everyone of them preaches. You must be very busy meeting and judging all of them.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#37453 - Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:21 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,375
Tom Online content
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Online Content
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,375
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Pilgrim said:
Quote
Spoken like a true Baptist! We realize that everyone who is baptized in a Baptist church is saved, especially if they make an outward profession of faith. But in non-Credo Baptist churches, this is not assumed; with the exception of those holding to hyper-covenantalism, NPP, FV, and other non-orthodox views. We accept one's profession when it is tested by the Elders (hopefully they are also reliable in their discernment) and by the life lived. But we cannot "know" they are saved just because they have been baptized.


First of all, thank you for the compliment, since I am a Baptist.
However, your second comment is (unless my understanding of Baptist doctrine is wrong) in error.
No Baptist that I am aware of assumes that someone should be baptized without first being tested by the elders.
Although no one can know with absolute certainty that a baptismal candidate is saved even after they have been tested, hopefully elders can be trusted.
However, what I was referring to when I used that statement is obviously Philip believed the eunuch was saved.

As an aside, I realize that you being a paedo and me a credo, we are not going to agree on everything. But, I refuse to get into a debate over this matter with you.
Whether I am right or wrong about Credo-baptism, I don't think that it would be wise of me to get into it with someone who obviously knows theology a lot better than me.

Pilgrim said:
Quote
Call me "suspicious", aka: a genuine, bona fide Calvinist who believes whole-heartedly in the doctrine of total depravity and in the deception of the Evil One, but I would never authorize the baptism of anyone, Muslim, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist (especially THOSE ) or a person off the street professing faith in Christ without FIRST having the individual(s) submit to a serious examination of that professed faith. And, I'm not referring to someone asking the person if they read the prayer on the back of the "Four Spiritual Laws" tract which a stranger handed them in a parking lot.



<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> I am scratching my head, trying to think about why you think based on what I said, that I believe he shouldn't be examined. Did I not say:
Quote
It might be best to make certain he understands that issue, clearly before being baptized.



Tom

#37454 - Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:29 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
Pilgrim said,

A man who is currently married to more than one wife, either by virtue of their culture or the laws of the land is a polygamist according to God's Word. And the Scripture is the "sole and final authority in all matters of faith and practice"... NOT culture, social law, or anything else apart from the inspired Word of God.

Just to clarify. If by this you mean the Scripture is the sole determiner of whether polygamy is a sin or not I would agree. However, if by this you mean that the Muslim’s culture in which he lives cannot determine that the converted Muslim is legally divorced because of his conversion – then I would not “fully” agree. Culture, social law, etc. does matter here and it would need to be investigated on a case by case basis (different sect, different laws, etc.).

Sola Scriptura, is the doctrine that the Scriptures are the sole infallible rule in faith and practice for the Christian. The Bible alone has ultimate and infallible authority. But that is not intended to imply that whatever other way God has made Himself known does not carry its own authority within itself. God has revealed himself in the creation and the constitution of man, as created in His image so that every person is responsible to both know God and obey His moral law. This revelation is absolutely authoritative and infallible in and of itself. What makes it fail is a problem in the person, not a problem in the revelation. It is not a “source” problem it is a “reception” problem.

As Neiswonger further states, the distinction comes in when we speak of the things necessary for salvation, or, Christian faith and practice. These things are not revealed in nature or in the constitution of man as created in the image of God. Those things necessary for salvation are revealed in ‘Scripture alone’. There may be things that can be learned from philosophy, the sciences, and human experience, what the historic Church has called “the light of nature”, but these are taken to be inferior and fallible authorities, apprehended through fallible means. Sola Scriptura takes the Scriptures as the sole infallible rule, but not the only rule. This is sometimes surprising even to the Christian thinker tutored in the thought of the historical Church because Sola Scriptura could seem to be saying that Scripture is the sole source, instead of the sole infallible source, and so the source that stands above and judges all other sources.

Thus, at times government laws need to be obeyed (Eph. 5:4-8; Rom. 13, Dan. 2:21, 4:17, Prov. 8:15, etc.) if the do not in conflict with the Scripture. When a Muslim in his own country is converted to Christianity, the laws of his country still apply to him, if they do not conflict with Scripture. In the case of a converted Muslim with multiple wives, the marriages are considered nullified upon his conversion. We do not need to Americanize (or Canadianize as the case may be) the Gospel and make the Muslim convert move to America to receive an American divorce to say he is truly divorced – do we? No, indeed, the laws of his country “may” prevail. If not, then I would have to say that there is not a single real non-Jewish divorce in the US, as “the writing of divorce” Jesus spoke about (Matt. 5:31-32; Deut. 24:1-4) is one established upon OT Judaic law – and the person demanding the divorce must write the document himself and literally hand it to the other party – no process server, no lawyer, and no court of law doing the writing (Deut. 24:1-4).

Culture does matter.

Sorry, I will be gone for a while. So, hopefully someone else will step in with some culture arguments and why they are legit in some instances.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#37455 - Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:10 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Tom]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
NH, USA
Tom,

I took what J_Edwards wrote at face value, found here: His post

Quote
However, I also am not going to begin with a faulty presupposition that someone professing Christ "is lost" because of whom he arrived at my office with.

In his reply above, I was and am justified in what I wrote since he again responded by saying that he believes one should "in love" accept everyone's profession as being true unless shown otherwise. I on the other hand, disagree and believe that ALL who profess Christ should be examined as to the credibility of their profession before being received into fellowship and baptized.

Although there were 3000 added to the church at Pentecost, there were in excess of 5000 men, plus women and children who allegedly believed on Christ and then departed from Him because His sayings were too hard, including many of His own disciples. (cf. Jh 6) Even Jesus Himself didn't accept the "profession" of men at face value, because He "knew what was in man".


John 2:23-25 (ASV) "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, during the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he did. But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, and because he needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man."


We do not need to be deity to know what is in the heart of man by nature, for the Scripture everywhere testifies to man's depravity. So, I stand in good company when I say again, that knowing the spiritual dearth of our present age, the promulgation of myriad false gospels, Easy Believism, etc., etc., ad nauseam, one would be foolish to begin with a presumption of truth in regard to a stranger's profession of faith and request to be baptized.

Oh, and don't you worry about me and J_Edwards.... we know each other quite well and on infrequent occasions, disagree on things.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#37456 - Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:21 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Tom]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
NH, USA
Quote
Tom said:
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> I am scratching my head, trying to think about why you think based on what I said, that I believe he shouldn't be examined. Did I not say:

Quote
It might be best to make certain he understands that issue, clearly before being baptized.

Oh Tom,

Don't scratch too hard or you will end up bald like me! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> In the first place, I couldn't resist rubbing you a bit for your "Baptist" statement that those baptized in a Baptist church "are saved"... it's that silly notion Credo's have about being able to create/maintain a "pure church". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

But I was NOT taking issue with you in regard to examining ALL applicants as you stated quite clearly that such should be the case. And in this we are in full agreement. Obviously, at least one is opposed to my/our presumption that one's profession is not to be taken as true until AFTER being examined and not before. [Linked Image]

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#37457 - Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:29 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,375
Tom Online content
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Online Content
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,375
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Quote
it's that silly notion Credo's have about being able to create/maintain a "pure church".


Are you sure that you are representing Credo's properly, because that isn't the understanding that I have.

Perhaps another Credo might want to weigh in here and comment?

Tom

#37458 - Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:02 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Tom]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
NH, USA
Quote
Tom said:

Quote
it's that silly notion Credo's have about being able to create/maintain a "pure church".


Are you sure that you are representing Credo's properly, because that isn't the understanding that I have.

This is unfortunately [Linked Image].

However, one of the most vehement arguments against paedobaptism launched by Credo's is that babies cannot make a profession of faith. And, ONLY those who can make a profession of faith, indicating that they ARE saved (thus your statement that those who are baptized ARE saved) are admitted into church membership. This practice is to keep "unbelievers" out of the Church since the Church is to consist of only true believers. Contrariwise, and at the same time, one would be hard-pressed to find a Baptist who is willing to be consistent with that premise. Most would be very quick to admit that there at least could be baptized church members who are not regenerate since no man can know the heart of any man infallibly. Therefore forbidding the baptism of infants so that no unbeliever is given church membership is rather weak at best. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

Now... [Linked Image]

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#37459 - Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:26 AM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
Pilgrim said,
In his reply above, I was and am justified in what I wrote since he again responded by saying that he believes one should "in love" accept everyone's profession as being true unless shown otherwise.I on the other hand, disagree and believe that ALL who profess Christ should be examined as to the credibility of their profession before being received into fellowship and baptized.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of my position. I stated, that I do believe that all who profess Christ should be examined as to their credibility of their profession before being received into fellowship and baptized!!! Where did I say this:

Quote
(1) Thus, all would be eligible for baptism after an investigation into “the facts” that regulate the situation and if the separations are legal, et. al.,

(2) but, as with any other baptismal candidates, I would inquire of their salvation experiences and see what their faith entailed. I would also ask them to explain their sect(s) to me so I would have a better understanding of where they are coming from culturally. If satisfactory, …,

(3) I don't know if I would baptise him or not. As I said earlier an inquiry needs to be made. Of course I would not baptise him if his view of Christ is faulty. Of course I would not baptise him if the wife situation is not properly -- according to law -- taken care of. These are a given.

(4) Paul – the scriptural Calvinist – began with a presumption of innocence (of love) before he proved all things (1 Thess. 5:21). Yes, he knew of everyone's depravity (Rom 1 and 5, etc.), but he was also considerate and godly in his approach (Gal. 6:1 ff).

So, the majority of your post is invalid. Where we differ is that you believe everyone professing Christ is a blatant liar until you prove them truthful and worthy of baptism. On the other hand, I believe that individuals giving a sincere profession of faith to be telling the truth until otherwise shown. This may be done in the inquiry and by viewing the fruit of their profession and of course throughout their lifetime in the church. A profession is not a onetime thing – it is continuous. Thus, it should be a joy for the new convert to share his faith again and again. Thus, I approach the inquiry biblically from a positive perspective, expecting to hear the gospel from them time after time.

Yes, in love I will continually discern the truth. Just because someone uses the term “in love” does not mean that it is an attribute of God being expressed without wisdom and discernment. On the contrary, love is always wise and discerning (Calvin). Moreover, while “Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man” (John 2:24-25), YOU are NOT Christ. YOU do NOT know what is in the man that has just entered your office. If you knew what was in man you would not need DISCERNMENT. Of course, all of us are depraved – that is a Gospel-given, but that does not mean that EVERY person entering your office is presently a liar and devoid of Christ. DISCERNMENT can work, and I believe more effectively work, from an attitude of trust and love than that of suspicion (1 Cor. 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way (1 Cor. 12:10; then chapter 13)).

Now I have to get back to my 18+ hour day. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#37460 - Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:23 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: J_Edwards]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Adopted Offline
Addict
Adopted  Offline
Addict

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Washington State
Quote

Joe said to Pilgrim:
So, the majority of your post is invalid. Where we differ is that you believe everyone professing Christ is a blatant liar until you prove them truthful and worthy of baptism. On the other hand, I believe that individuals giving a sincere profession of faith to be telling the truth until otherwise shown.


From my layman's view this argument has degenerated somewhat into a serious battle. Participants have resorted to sort of throwing theological hand grenades from camp to camp. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

Joe, it seems that you are implying that Pilgrim is more than willing to behead and shoot sincere believers with a crossbow and Pilgrim thinks that you would resurrect Mohammed and make him Pope of the PCA. I have come to the conclusion that you both may very well have valid points after reading this little gem from the Second Helvetic Confession chapter 17:

Quote

We Must Not Judge Rashly or Prematurely. Hence we must be very careful not to judge before the time, nor undertake to exclude, reject or cut off those whom the Lord does not want to have excluded or rejected, and those whom we cannot eliminate without loss to the Church. On the other hand, we must be vigilant lest while the pious snore the wicked gain ground and do harm to the Church.


Quote

Do not turn to the right or the left; Remove your foot from evil. [Proverbs 4:27]


Does anyone get my drift? I hate these "what if" questions with a passion anyway. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/argue.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#37461 - Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:24 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Adopted]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Your analogies behind (you don't the two of us very well), I have no problem with Second Helvetic Confession as long as it is followed in a spirit of charity.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#37462 - Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:19 AM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: J_Edwards]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Adopted Offline
Addict
Adopted  Offline
Addict

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Washington State
Quote

Joe said:
Your analogies behind (you don't the two of us very well), I have no problem with Second Helvetic Confession as long as it is followed in a spirit of charity.


I honestly did not intend to offend anyone. If I did please forgive me.

I've been posting on the Highway for nearly three years now and in fact I do believe I know something about the immense brotherly love and respect you and Pilgrim have for one another. My outrageous analogies were to prove a point.

According to the Second Helvetic Confession the apparently opposing positions of you and Pilgrim, on a second look, are actually compatible and complimentary, - both being charitable and not mutually exclusive. You are rightfully being charitable and protective of the tender consciece of the new believer, and Pilgrim is being charitable and protective of the church community. The dangers to our congegations of not being careful as to who we admit to church membership, especially this day and hedonistic age, are undeniable.

Actually, it is my opinion, that the the more important threat to our Reformed churches is the failure to discipline wayward and heretical people who are already members. Sadly, I was a frontline witness to the falling of a very large denomination for this very reason, as they were much more interested in increasing numbers and "church building" than the objective truth of the Scripture and Gospel.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#37463 - Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:09 AM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Adopted]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Denny,

I was not offended, however the characterizations you put together, “Joe, it seems that you are implying that Pilgrim is more than willing to behead and shoot sincere believers with a crossbow and Pilgrim thinks that you would resurrect Mohammed and make him Pope of the PCA,” were not edifying – at least for me. You went too far, IMO, because you do not understand Pilgrim and I …. You think you do, but let me explain.

Pilgrim and I were not having a “serious battle,” but when we disagree (which is a rarity) we understand that iron sharpens iron (Prov. 27:17) and thus we get our swords out and get into it. The Proverb says, “Iron sharpeneth iron; So a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.” This explains that people must not shy away from interaction with their peers since it is an education in itself. The “sharpening” can occur in any area in which people are engaged, be it business, intellectual, or physical competition. For Pilgrim and me we at times learn by sword drills – but note the goal is to “sharpen the countenance of his friend.”

Because we are such good friends though one may wound the other, we know it is meant for each other’s good. We also know the Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword (Heb. 4:12), thus unlike a fleshy sword which stabs on the way in and dissects on the way out, our spiritual swords may go deep to remove cancers, but the sharpness of the other side is like a physician that is there to heal. See it is not really us fighting, but us trying to dig for the complete truth. We desire the truth in us – the full truth, not just part of it – all of it and thus we do our dance. In “some” ways it is like fencing. In this sport (not battle) there are two fencers and a director (referee, ours being our LORD). Normally as in fencing we salute each other (we truly admire one another’s resolve). Then the issue comes to light and as in fencing we say "En-garde,” "Ready," and then "Play" (or “Fence”), and the bout will start. In fencing there is blade work (we go to the Bible), footwork drills (we practice balance), shadow fencing (what if drills), and control drills (you get close, but not too close), etc. Basically, we learn from one another. (PS: these are Bible fencing drill definitions which may differ somewhat from normal fencing terms definitions).

I believe I was in accord with the Second Helvetic Confession in my posts. I do not see where I was not being “protective of the church community” especially when I re-emphasized this very point here. Additionally, I do not see where we can say we are practicing charity when we do not begin be trusting the person we are speaking too (1 Cor. 13:7). So, though I do agree with SHC I still observe some unresolved issues.

I agree with you that it is important (but not more important) “to discipline wayward and heretical people who are already members.” The PCA takes entirely too long to make decisions on what is and is not heresy, etc. I like the swiftness of Philip when he disciplined Simon in Acts 8, but understand that some issues are not quit as easy to unravel. When it comes to “denominations” at times I desire to just say “Come, Lord Jesus, Come” as there is just so much corruption, mis-direction, false worship, and other sin, et. al. that one really just gets tried of dealing with it all. As Paul said, “But I am in a strait betwixt the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ; for it is very far better: yet to abide in the flesh is more needful for your sake“ (Phil. 1:23-24).


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#37464 - Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:43 AM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: J_Edwards]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Adopted Offline
Addict
Adopted  Offline
Addict

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Washington State
Quote

Joe said:
I was not offended, however the characterizations you put together, “Joe, it seems that you are implying that Pilgrim is more than willing to behead and shoot sincere believers with a crossbow and Pilgrim thinks that you would resurrect Mohammed and make him Pope of the PCA,” were not edifying


I honestly thought you and Pilgrim would laugh at my "tongue in cheek" analogies. I'm very sorry for being so assuming and sometimes the attempt at humor is not appropriate.

I apologize.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/broke.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#37465 - Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:43 AM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Adopted]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,354
NH, USA
Denny,

For me, there was no offense in your ridiculous analogies since they were obviously highly exaggerated, much akin to the political satire and cartoons seen in some newspapers.

I particularly liked your use of "beheading". [Linked Image]

Yes, there are differences in Joe's and my approaches. Again, just so there is no misunderstanding, I always begin with the presupposition that one's profession of faith is potentially spurious, especially given the many false gospels which are in the world today. I have always show charity and always will to one who professes Christ.. TO HIS/HER FACE, but retain a healthy skepticism on the inside UNTIL the person can be "examined", either formally or socially. I think one would be very foolish to do otherwise. Let's take Billy Graham's own estimation of the "success" of his Crusades. He estimates that perhaps 5% of all those who "come forward" are actually saved. That leaves 95% of those who "asked Jesus into their hearts" who are unsaved yet profess Christ. Personally, I think Graham is guilty of hyperbole; i.e., far less than 5% are actually saved since the true Gospel isn't preached nor taught by him nor those in his organization. (Disclaimer: yes, it is possible that there are exceptions, albeit I think improbable.)

Joe also used the same exaggerated methodology when he wrote I deemed all who professed Christ as "liars". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> I simply believe that the vast majority of those in our day who profess to be Christians are deceived and are yet dead in their sins despite what they profess, which in most cases is faulty to begin with. Contrary to U.S. jurisprudence which considers all men innocent until proven guilty, I prefer to take the biblical perspective which sees all men as guilty before God by nature. And again, with all the false religions which proliferate our world today with their respective false gospels, especially within the broad spectrum of so-called Christendom, I simply believe that prudence dictates one be skeptical, cautious and discerning before extending the right hand of fellowship to anyone who professes to be united to Christ by faith.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#37466 - Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:01 PM Re: Muslim becomes Christian and so does his wives... [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
Pilgrim states,

I always begin with the presupposition that one's profession of faith is potentially spurious, especially given the many false gospels which are in the world today. I have always show charity and always will to one who professes Christ.. TO HIS/HER FACE, but retain a healthy skepticism on the inside UNTIL the person can be "examined", either formally or socially.

Joe also used the same exaggerated methodology when he wrote I deemed all who professed Christ as "liars". I simply believe that the vast majority of those in our day who profess to be Christians are deceived and are yet dead in their sins despite what they profess, which in most cases is faulty to begin with.


This is semantics. Skepticism is an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity (disbelief or mental rejection) either in general or toward a particular object. Thus, when one doubts another’s profession they believe the professor is lying – whether the lie is intentional or because of a misunderstanding has no bearing on it – either way the person is not being trusted. Thus, the interviewer’s attitude of skepticism, doubt, disbelief, or mental rejection towards the particular object cannot by biblical definition be one of love. Our attitude changes the whole approach and heart in the matter. People can pick up on whether you trust them or not. We have the Christian attitude in 1 Corinthians 13:7, where love believeth all things and hopeth all things. Thus, I have a very difficult time paralleling the skeptic’s methodology with Scripture.

We are just running in circles now, so I guess it is time to put down the foils. Or, as they say, “Halt.” <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 19 guests, and 105 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SmallFry, drewk, patrice, Robert1962, Ron
922 Registered Users
Shout Box
January
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Today's Birthdays
Saved_n_kept
Popular Topics(Views)
686,378 Gospel truth
Page Time: 0.055s Queries: 16 (0.002s) Memory: 2.7435 MB (Peak: 3.0558 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-01-20 06:56:52 UTC